Character Creation

[Rabbit]

Sounds good, michael.

Everyone else, michael and I have been discussing Ragner's backstory and a new political fraction developed from them; The Royalists. Which michael gave a quick description of. Since everyone is from (or has spent notable time on) Salas you all would be aware of The Royalists and The Merchant's Guild long standing rivalry. It would be hard not to.

[reefwood]

Jholmyr is pretty close to finalized. Might tinker around with a feat and some skill points, but I should have him done and posted (along with some backstory) before game time.

[reefwood]

Thysmalys Paer'shol (Forceful Sandstorm of the Desert Wind) of Tal Paer'shol (Desert Wind Clan) aka. Jholmyr (Southern Links)

Dry air, barren dunes, and a scorching sun may not seem like elements typically associated with elves, but the desert is as much a part of nature as the forest. While harsh environments are not often inhabited, those who do strive to pesist in such condition are often a hardy people, and the southern sands of Kenden are home to many elven warriors clans.

Thysmalys (Forceful Sandstorm) is a proud member of Tal Paer'shol (Clan of the Desert Wind). As is tradition for his people, he took to the blade and bow at an early age. It was not long before his skill with both excelled. Enough that his teacher decided to place a more exotic weapon in his hands. The spiked chain is too unwieldy for most and requires the use of both hands, so therefore, prevents the use of a shield or second weapon at the ready. For those who can master it, however, the versatility provided is unmatched. Even moreso when paired with the proper techniques.

Members of the warrior clans sometime leave home for short stints as young adults to further broaden their martial experience. For generations, Tal Paer'shol has chosen to accomplish this through a military organization known as the Purple Dragons. Thysmalys Paer'shol signed up for a decade of service. During this time, he has learned to maximize the ability of the spiked chain and earned the moniker Jholmyr (Southern Links) in reference to his weapon and homeland.

Jholmyr is currently a Private First Class in the Purple Dragons and has recently arrived in Salas as part of their effort to restore the rightful ruler to power. A growing threat on the jungle continent, however, has shifted the focus. At least for the time being. Thus, Jholmyr finds himself on a special mission pressing closer to the frontline, and there is nowhere else he would rather be.

---

I was going to include his character sheet as an attachment but couldn't figure out how to do that, so here it is copied straight from the spreadsheet, so it will look a bit wonky

Jholmyr
Elf, NG
Fighter 8

Ability Scores
Str: 18 4
Dex: 16 3
Con: 12 1
Int: 13 1
Wis: 10 0
Cha: 11 0

Con Misc Lvl1 Lvl2 Lvl3 Lvl4 Lvl5 Lvl6 Lvl7 Lvl8
Hit Points: 61 8 10 10 6 3 7 7 9 1
Nonlethal: 0
Damage: 0
Dex Misc
Initiative: 3 3 0
Speed: 30 ft

DEFENSE
Saves Cla Mod Misc
Fortitude: 7 6 1 0
Reflex: 5 2 3 0
Will: 2 2 0 0 *
* +2 racial vs enchantment and immune to magic sleep

Armor Class Base Dex Arm Nat Shi Def Dod Size Misc
Total: 19 10 3 6 0 0 0 0 0 0
ff 16
t 13

OFFENSE
BAB 8 Str Size Dex Def Dod
Grapple 12 4 0 -- -- --

Melee 12
+1 Spiked Chain 13 2d4+ 7 8 2d4+ 7
-trip (touch) 13 Str 8 8 Str 8
-disarm 19 14
+1 Greatsword 13 2d6+ 7 8 2d6+ 7
Cold Iron Spiked Chain 12 2d4+ 6 7 2d4+ 6
-trip (touch) 12 Str 8 7 Str 8
-disarm 18 13
750
Ranged 11 300
Composite Longbow Str+4 11 1d8+ 4 6 1d8+ 4

Class +Int +Misc xLvl
Skill Points 33 2 1 0 8
Skills Rnk Mod Misc ACP
Appraise 1 1
Balance* 3 3 0
Climb* 14 10 4 0
Craft(_____) 1 1
Diplomacy 0 0
Disguise 0 0
Escape* 3 3 0
Handle^ 0 0
Heal 0 0
Hide* 3 3 0
Intimidate 11 11 0
Jump* 14 10 4 0
Listen 2 0 2
Move Silently* 3 3 0
Prof(_____)^ 0 0
Ride 3 3
Search 3 1 2
Sense Motive 0 0
Spot 2 0 2 0
Survival 0 0
Swim* 4 4 0
Tumble^* 4 1 3 0
UMD^ 0 0
^trained, *ACP 32

Languages
1) Common
2) Elven
3) Goblin

Feats
1) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain [1st]
2) Combat Reflexes: 4 AoO/round [Ftr1]
3) Dodge: +1 dodge vs 1 enemy [Ftr2]
4) Combat Expertise: up to +5 AC / -5 attack [3rd]
5) Mobility: +4 dodge while moving [Ftr4]
6) Spring Attack: 30 ft [6th]
7) Whirlwind Attack [Ftr6]
8) Improved Trip [Ftr8]

Class Features
1) All simple/martial weapons
2) All armor/shields
3) Bonus fighter feat at 1st level and every even level

Racial Traits
1) +2 Dex, -2 Con
2) Medium / 30 ft
3) Immune to magic sleep and +2 racial vs enchantment
4) Low-light vision
5) +2 racial to Listen, Search, Spot and receives a Search check w/in 5 ft of concealed door
6) Proficient w/ longsword, rapier, longbow, shortbow

Wealth GP SP CP PP Gems
Remaining 0
Spent 13000

Load Lgt Med Hvy
Current 74.3 100 200 300

Equipment
Protection GP Lb AC Dex ACP ASF
+1 Mithral Breastplate 5350 15 6 5 0 10%
Shield 0%

Weapons GP Lb Damage Crit Threat Crit Multiplier Type Misc
+1 Spiked Chain 2325 10 2d4 20 x2 P 10 ft reach
+1 Greatsword 2350 8 2d6 19-20 x2 S two-handed
Composite Longbow Str+4 500 3 1d8+4 20 x3 P 110 ft
Cold Iron Spiked Chain 50 10 2d4 20 x2 P 10 ft reach
Longsword 15 4 1d8 19-20 x2 S
Shortspear 1 3 1d6 20 x2 P 20 ft
Spear 2 6 1d8 20 x3 P 20 ft
Longspear 5 9 1d8 20 x3 P

Items GP Lb
Wand of Bear's Endurance (x50) 2250 SOLD
Potion of cure light wounds 50 0.1
Arrows x40 2 6
Potion of enlarge person x2 100 0.2

[michael]

I took another level of Dwarven Defender for Ragnar. It gave me Uncanny Dodge, and I took Power Attack for my feat.

Red represents his abilities in Defensive Stance.

Ragnar Hammerday
9 HD, Paladin 7, Dwarven Defender 2
Lawful Good Dwarf

CON - 18/22 (+4/6) [16 + 2 dwarf]
STR - 16/18 (+3/4) [15 + 1 level]
DEX - 13 (+1)
WIS - 11 (0)
CHA - 10 (0)[11 + 1 level - 2 dwarf]
INT - 9 (-1)

SAVES
FORT - 12/16 (5+3+4)
REF - 3/5 (2+1)
WILL - 5/7 (2+3)

HP: 98/116
INIT: +1
Speed: 20 ft
AC: 24/28 (10 + 1 DEX + 9 Armor + 3 shield + 1 class)
Touch AC: 12
FF AC: 24
BA, G: 9/4, 12/13

FEATS
Dodge
Toughness
Endurance
Power Attack

SKILLS
Ride 4 (+1 DEX, +3 Ranks)
Craft (Armorsmithing) 8 (-1 INT, +7 ranks +2 Dwarf [metal/stone armor only])
Spot 2 (+2 ranks)

EQUIPMENT
+1 Slick Full Plate - 5400g, 50 lbs.
+1 Animated Heavy Shield - 4157g, 10 lbs
Tower Shield - 30g, 45 lbs

+1 Dwarven Waraxe - 2330 g, 8 lbs
--2h: +13/+8 melee (1d10+5; x3) / 1h: +13/+8 (1d10+ 4; x3)
--2h: +14/+9 melee (1d10+7; x3) / 1h: +14/+9 (1d10+ 5; x3)
Lance - 10g, 10 lbs
--2h: +12/+7 melee (1d8+4; x3) / 1h: +12/+7 (1d8+ 3; x3)
--2h: +13/+8 melee (1d8+6; x3) / 1h: +13/+8 (1d8+ 4; x3)
Compound Longbow +1 - 200g, 3 lbs
-- +10/+5 ranged (1d8+1; x3)
100 arrows - 5g, 15 lbs
MW Greataxe (Coated w/ Alchemical Silver) - 500 g, 12 lbs
-- +13/+8 melee (1d12+4; x3)
-- +14/+9 melee (1d10+6; x3)

MW Exotic Studded Leather - 400g, 40 lbs
Exotic Riding Saddle - 30g, 30 lbs
Saddlebags - 4g, 8 lbs

1521 gold

CLASS FEATURES

Paladin
-Aura of courage: Immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects.
-Aura of good
-Detect evil
-Divine health: immunity to all diseases
-Divine grace: CHA bonus to saves
-Lay on hands: CHA bonus x 7 HP of healing/day
-Remove disease 1/wk
-smite evil 2/day: CHA bonus to ATK, Paladin lvl to DMG.
-Special mount
-Turn undead 3/day

Dwarven Defender
-Defensive Stance 1/day: +4 CON, +2 STR, +4 AC, +2 to all saves, can't move from spot, Lasts for 3 + CON rounds, -2 STR for remainder of encounter when stance ends
-+1 dodge bonus to AC
-Uncanny Dodge

DWARVEN RACIAL FEATURES

- +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma.
- Medium size.
- A dwarf’s base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.
- Darkvision out to to 60 feet.
- Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. Dwarves have a sixth sense about stonework, an innate ability that they get plenty of opportunity to practice and hone in their underground homes.
- Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
- Stability: Dwarves are exceptionally stable on their feet. A dwarf has a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
- +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
- +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
- +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs (including half-orcs) and goblinoids (including goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears).
- +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against creatures of the giant type (such as ogres, trolls, and hill giants).
- +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
- +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
- Automatic Languages: Common, Dwarven.

[icnivad]

Here is Eldrick updated.

I took Leadership as his feat.

New spells learned at this level are:

Arcane:
Fly (L3)
Walk the Mountain Path (L3) [non-core]
This spell lasts for 10 minutes/level and makes a touched character:
a) not slowed by slopes;
b) gain a Climb speed equal to his/her base
Land Speed; and
c) +10 Enhancement bonus on Balance and
Jump checks.

Divine:
Speak with Dead(L3)
Lesser Vigor(L1) [non-core]
this spell gives a touched character fast healing 1 for 10 rnds+1 rnd/level (max 15 rnds) So, it basically heals 15 hit points over the next 15 rounds.

Let me know if the non-core spells are ok.

I also bought some scrolls that I have not had time to scribe into my spellbook(all core):
Displacement
Major Image
Haste
Rope Trick
Invisibility
Locate Object


Hm. I can't seem to figure out how to attach a file. I'll email you, Rabbit.

[icnivad]

ok, I just emailed Eldrick and Golem.

I also decided not to go with the monk route for Golem. I couldn't get the AC as a monk as high as a full plate and tower shield combo. I gave him a ring of protection, a ring of natural armor, +1 full tower shield, enchanted his built-in adamantium armor to +1, and bought him a Battle Fist. The Battle Fist is a warforged specific item from eberron. It's basically a gauntlet that improves his slam attack to 1d8(from 1d4) and can be enchanted like a weapon. It cost 2600gp. Since I haven't asked about it yet, let me know if it's ok. My eventual goal is to enchant it and give it the "defending" property, thus adding to his AC some more. I spent one feat on Adamantium plating, and all of the rest on improved damage reduction.

With all of this, he has a 27 AC and DR 8/Adamantium. He can't hit particularly well, though, but that's not really his role. He also rolled really well for hit points, rolling 3 10s.

[reefwood]

Not too much changes this time. His BAB went up by +1 and took Weapon Focus on the spiked chain to boost those attacks by another +1. Mostly to help him still be able to hit while maxing out Combat Expertise, and open up the way for Weapon Specialization to increase damage down the road.

---

Jholmyr
Elf, NG
Fighter 9

Ability Scores
Str: 18
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 13
Wis: 10
Cha: 11


Hit Points: 66
Nonlethal: 0
Damage: 0

Initiative: 3
Speed: 30 ft

DEFENSE
Saves
Fortitude: 7
Reflex: 6
Will: 3
* +2 racial vs enchantment and immune to magic sleep

Armor Class
Total: 19
ff 16
t 13

OFFENSE
BAB 9
Grapple 13

Melee 13
+1 Spiked Chain 15 2d4+7 / 10 2d4+7
-trip (touch) 15 Str 8 / 10 Str 8
-disarm 21 / 16
+1 Greatsword 14 2d6+7 / 9 2d6+7
Cold Iron Spiked Chain 14 2d4+6 9 2d4+6
-trip (touch) 14 Str 8 / 9 Str 8
-disarm 20 / 15


Ranged 12
Composite Longbow Str+4 12 1d8+4 / 7 1d8+4


Skill Points 36
Skills
Appraise 1
Balance* 3
Climb* 14
Craft(_____) 1
Diplomacy 0
Disguise 0
Escape* 3
Handle^ 0
Heal 0
Hide* 3
Intimidate 11
Jump* 14
Listen 2
Move Silently* 3
Prof(_____)^ 0
Ride 3
Search 3
Sense Motive 0
Spot 2
Survival 0
Swim* 7
Tumble^* 4
UMD^ 0
^trained, *ACP

Languages
1) Common
2) Elven
3) Goblin

Feats
1) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain [1st]
2) Combat Reflexes: 4 AoO/round [Ftr1]
3) Dodge: +1 dodge vs 1 enemy [Ftr2]
4) Combat Expertise: up to +5 AC / -5 attack [3rd]
5) Mobility: +4 dodge while moving [Ftr4]
6) Spring Attack: 30 ft [6th]
7) Whirlwind Attack [Ftr6]
8) Improved Trip [Ftr8]
9) Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain [9th]

Class Features
1) All simple/martial weapons
2) All armor/shields
3) Bonus fighter feat at 1st level and every even level

Racial Traits
1) +2 Dex, -2 Con
2) Medium / 30 ft
3) Immune to magic sleep and +2 racial vs enchantment
4) Low-light vision
5) +2 racial to Listen, Search, Spot and receives a Search check w/in 5 ft of concealed door
6) Proficient w/ longsword, rapier, longbow, shortbow

Load | Lgt | Med | Hvy
Current 74.2 | 100 | 200 | 300

Equipment
Protection GP Lb
+1 Mithral Breastplate 5350 15

Weapons GP Lb
+1 Spiked Chain 2325 10
+1 Greatsword 2350 8
Composite Longbow Str+4 500 3
Cold Iron Spiked Chain 50 10
Longsword 15 4
Shortspear 1 3
Spear 2 6
Longspear 5 9

Items GP Lb
Potion of cure light wounds 50 0.1
Arrows x40 2 6
Potion of enlarge person x1 50 0.1

[reefwood]

Feats

Wondering which feats to take next. Jholmyr gets 1 bonus fighter feat at 10th-level. Then at 12th-level, he gets a regular feat and 1 more bonus fighter feat.

Will probably take Weapon Specialization for +2 on damage rolls with the spiked chain. Then, Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization at 12th level for a total of +2 attack and +4 damage with the spiked chain. It's not awesome but does boost both attack and damage, and the attack bonus helps offset the use of Combat Expertise.

Another option is to take Power Attack now, and then Cleave and Great Cleave at 12th-level. This could boost damage a good bit but by decreasing the chance to hit, and unfortunately, you can't Cleave while using Whirlwind Attack. But Cleave still works pretty nice with the spiked chain since that gives a great reach to hit someone else after the first enemy goes down. Also, using the spiked chain with Combat Reflexes and Cleave does give the potential for hitting an enemy already in range after taking down one that tries to close in.

The other mix of feats is more random. Improved Disarm could be handy...but it seems that as enemies get harder and we go into the wilds, less of them have manufactured weapons anyway. But it can be used to snag other items (i.e. necklace, cloak, etc) that might be helping enemies. Blind-Fight would help with fighting in the dark or fog, in addition to when blind...and that would give a better chance to fight the death gaze hag with eyes closed...which I think prevents the death gaze. Quick Draw might be nice since Jholmyr has a few weapon options, so he can wait to commit to a weapon until a threat is obvious, and then he can pick a weapon as a free action, so he can still get in a full-attack.

[michael]

Blind-Fight would help with fighting in the dark or fog, in addition to when blind...and that would give a better chance to fight the death gaze hag with eyes closed...which I think prevents the death gaze.

I don't think the hag with the death gaze will be a problem. We have that Hag Eye. If we break it, it does 1d10 damage to all three hags, and the hag that takes the most damage is blinded for 24 hours. If there is only one hag left, it's automatically the one that takes the most damage. So if we break the Hag's Eye right before fighting that hag, it'll be blind, and unable to use its gaze attack.

[michael]

Red represents his abilities in Defensive Stance.

Ragnar Hammerday
10 HD, Paladin 7, Dwarven Defender 3
Lawful Good Dwarf

CON - 18/22 (+4/6) [16 + 2 dwarf]
STR - 16/18 (+3/4) [15 + 1 level]
DEX - 13 (+1)
WIS - 11 (0)/15 (+2) [Helmet of Wisdom]
CHA - 10 (0)[11 + 1 level - 2 dwarf]
INT - 9 (-1)

SAVES
FORT - 12/16 (5+3+4)
REF - 4/6 (2+1+1)
WILL - 7/9 (2+3+2)

HP: 105/125
INIT: +1
Speed: 20 ft
AC: 24/28 (10 + 1 DEX + 9 Armor + 3 shield + 1 class)
Touch AC: 12
FF AC: 24
BA, G: 10/5, 13/14

FEATS
Dodge
Toughness
Endurance
Power Attack

SKILLS
Ride 4 (+1 DEX, +3 Ranks)
Craft (Armorsmithing) 8 (-1 INT, +7 ranks +2 Dwarf [metal/stone armor only])
Spot 5 (+3 ranks, +2 WIS)

EQUIPMENT
+1 Slick Full Plate - 5400g, 50 lbs.
+1 Animated Heavy Shield - 4157g, 10 lbs
Tower Shield - 30g, 45 lbs
Helmet of Wisdom +4 - ? g, ? lbs
Periapt of Wisdom +1 - 1000g

+1 Dwarven Waraxe - 2330 g, 8 lbs
--2h: +14/+9 melee (1d10+5; x3) / 1h: +14/+9 (1d10+ 4; x3)
--2h: +15/+10 melee (1d10+7; x3) / 1h: +15/+10 (1d10+ 5; x3)
Lance - 10g, 10 lbs
--2h: +13/+8 melee (1d8+4; x3) / 1h: +13/+8 (1d8+ 3; x3)
--2h: +14/+9 melee (1d8+6; x3) / 1h: +14/+9 (1d8+ 4; x3)
Compound Longbow +1 - 200g, 3 lbs
-- +11/+6 ranged (1d8+1; x3)
Compound Longbow +4 - 800g, 3 lbs
-- +11/+6 ranged (1d8+4; x3)
100 arrows - 5g, 15 lbs
MW Greataxe (Coated w/ Alchemical Silver) - 500 g, 12 lbs
-- +14/+9 melee (1d12+4; x3)
-- +15/+10 melee (1d10+6; x3)
Warhammer - 12 g, 5 lbs
-- 2h: +13/+8 melee (1d8+4; x3) / 1h: +13/+8 (1d8+ 3; x3)
-- 2h: +14/+9 melee (1d8+6; x3) / 1h: +14/+9 (1d8+ 4; x3)

MW Exotic Studded Leather - 400g, 40 lbs
Exotic Riding Saddle - 30g, 30 lbs
Saddlebags - 4g, 8 lbs

759 gold

CARRYING CAPACITY

-Ragnar-
Light: 76 lbs or less
Medium: 77 - 153
Heavy: 154 - 230
Current Load: 161 lbs (Assuming nothing is in Troll-Ripper's saddlebags.)

-Troll-Ripper-
Light: 1200 lbs or less
Medium: 1201 - 2400
Heavy: 2401 - 3600
Current Load: 422 lbs with Ragnar, 78 lbs without

SPELLS
Caster Level 4
1st level: 2 per day, DC 13

CLASS FEATURES

Paladin
-Aura of courage: Immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects.
-Aura of good
-Detect evil
-Divine health: immunity to all diseases
-Divine grace: CHA bonus to saves
-Lay on hands: CHA bonus x 7 HP of healing/day
-Remove disease 1/wk
-smite evil 2/day: CHA bonus to ATK, Paladin lvl to DMG.
-Special mount
-Turn undead 3/day

Dwarven Defender
-Defensive Stance 2/day: +4 CON, +2 STR, +4 AC, +2 to all saves, can't move from spot, Lasts for 3 + CON rounds, -2 STR for remainder of encounter when stance ends
-+1 dodge bonus to AC
-Uncanny Dodge

DWARVEN RACIAL FEATURES

- +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma.
- Medium size.
- A dwarf’s base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.
- Darkvision out to to 60 feet.
- Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. Dwarves have a sixth sense about stonework, an innate ability that they get plenty of opportunity to practice and hone in their underground homes.
- Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
- Stability: Dwarves are exceptionally stable on their feet. A dwarf has a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
- +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
- +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
- +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs (including half-orcs) and goblinoids (including goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears).
- +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against creatures of the giant type (such as ogres, trolls, and hill giants).
- +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
- +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
- Automatic Languages: Common, Dwarven.

[reefwood]

Not sure if I'll have time to post Jholmyr's new stats on here, but the basics are that his Fort goes up +1, all his attacks go up +1, his spiked chain attacks go up another +1 (Greater Weapon Focus), Climb & Jump are up to around +14, and his total hp are up to 71 (have rolled terrible the last few times...4, 1, 4).