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Post by reefwood on Jun 5, 2011 21:21:04 GMT -5
Yeah, all of mine (that are high enough level) are going to take the Infusion discovery so they can give their extracts to other people. Which reminds me... you still need to select the classes for Brion's followers: Followers (73)1st-level (60): ?? 2nd-level (6): ?? 3rd-level (3): ?? 4th-level (2): ?? 5th-level (1): ?? 6th-level (1): ?? I have enough money from my daily wages to pay for this without a rewards package. Would I be able to pay someone in the military to do this, or not? No, you can't really buy anything from the army. Rewards are listed in gp amounts, but the packages are more like access to limited resources. |
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Post by michael on Jun 6, 2011 17:15:27 GMT -5
Well, I'm not really buying from the army, I'm paying a person for a service, and it just so happens that person is in the army. Probably doesn't make a difference, does it?
Followers (73)
1st-level (60): 30 Barbarians, 20 Fighters, 5 Sorcerers, 5 Rangers
2nd-level (6): 2 Cleric, 1 Druid, 1 Barbarian, 2 Sorcerers
3rd-level (3): 3 Alchemists
4th-level (2): 2 Alchemists
5th-level (1): 1 Alchemist
6th-level (1): Bard 5/Pathfinder Chronicler 1
All of the level 1 & 2 followers are worshipers of Gorum. The barbarians are a local Orc tribe that used to fight against Nemedor. Their customs recognize strength above all else, so when they were defeated, they swore fealty to their conquerors. The fighters, sorcerers, clerics, and rangers are members of the Nemedoran army. The Druid is unaffiliated with the war, but follows me because I'm a cleric of Gorum.
The Alchemists were put under my command by the army.
The Pathfinder Chronicler is composing an epic tale about my heroic deeds.
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Post by reefwood on Jun 7, 2011 13:27:40 GMT -5
Well, I'm not really buying from the army, I'm paying a person for a service, and it just so happens that person is in the army. Probably doesn't make a difference, does it? Correct. There may have been an exception or two at some point during this campaign, but the general rule is that you cannot buy stuff from the army. Stuff is either earned through rewards or provided as temporary mission equipment. Followers (73) 1st-level (60): 30 Barbarians, 20 Fighters, 5 Sorcerers, 5 Rangers 2nd-level (6): 2 Cleric, 1 Druid, 1 Barbarian, 2 Sorcerers 3rd-level (3): 3 Alchemists 4th-level (2): 2 Alchemists 5th-level (1): 1 Alchemist 6th-level (1): Bard 5/Pathfinder Chronicler 1 All of the level 1 & 2 followers are worshipers of Gorum. The barbarians are a local Orc tribe that used to fight against Nemedor. Their customs recognize strength above all else, so when they were defeated, they swore fealty to their conquerors. The fighters, sorcerers, clerics, and rangers are members of the Nemedoran army. The Druid is unaffiliated with the war, but follows me because I'm a cleric of Gorum. The Alchemists were put under my command by the army. The Pathfinder Chronicler is composing an epic tale about my heroic deeds. Totally sweet. I'll add this info to the Leadership post in the Code of Conduct thread. Oh, and now your one 5th-level Alchemist knows darkvision and has the " Infusion" Discovery, correct? |
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Post by michael on Jun 7, 2011 17:01:18 GMT -5
One of my 4th levels. I think I said 3rd level last night, actually, but they don't know 2nd level spells.
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Post by icnivad on Jun 9, 2011 20:40:27 GMT -5
Finally getting caught up on this thread. Typing on my phone, so sorry if I have any typos.
Nim's base craft skill is +7. He could always bump this up for a specific craft at the next level if we have a specific cr to beat. But since there is no cost to failing the craft check, just a wasted spell and poorly crafted object he could always try again with another casting.
Stone is generally used in construction since it is cheap and plentiful. But since we aren't really limited by that with the use of pao, why don't we build the castle out of steel?
Since hollow space included in the spell area, nim will be able to manipulate about an 11 ft cube with each casting. I'm not sure how big of a castle we are considering, but we should keep it in mind that this will take multiple castings
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Post by michael on Jun 9, 2011 23:50:33 GMT -5
I was thinking of a base that was 20x20, and 10 feet high. That would take 4 castings of POA.
What if we only used Polymorph to thicken existing walls? The empty space between the walls will have existed before polymorph was ever cast, and will remain unchanged, so it shouldn't be included in the spell area, correct?
If we take that route, we could potentially build the entire structure with two castings of Wall of Stone. If all walls are created one inch thick, then at level 15, that gives us 45 five foot squares to work with. If each wall is ten feet high and 20 feet long, all 4 walls would only use 32 of those squares.
Polymorph Any Object gives you 1500 square feet to work with, so the entire structure could transformed from 1 inch to 19 inches thick with one casting of PAO. Then we put a roof on with a second Wall of Stone.
Or, if we wanted something sturdier, we could build walls and a roof with 5 castings of Wall of Iron, then thicken them with Polymorph.
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Post by reefwood on Jun 12, 2011 17:40:40 GMT -5
I was thinking of a base that was 20x20, and 10 feet high. That would take 4 castings of POA. What if we only used Polymorph to thicken existing walls? The empty space between the walls will have existed before polymorph was ever cast, and will remain unchanged, so it shouldn't be included in the spell area, correct? I went over this in one of the other threads, but there is a difference between an object (i.e. nail) vs an object that is part of a greater object (i.e. nail holding together a wooden table) vs multiple objects mashed together (i.e. nail in random piece of wood. A better example of that last one might be a bookshelf full of books or a cabinet full of dinnerware. If you polymorph the bookshelf or cabinet, their contents are considered equipment that melds into the new form, as opposed to having the contents just fall out. Anyway, as to the question at hand, if you want to polymorph part of an object, you have to be able to polymorph the entire object or separate the lesser object. For example, if you want to polymorph the gear in a clock, you have to be able to polymorph the whole clock, or remove the gear first if you only want to affect the gear. And removing the gear will probably be pretty easy in most instances Along the same lines, if you want to polymorph a wall that is part of a greater object, you have to be able to affect the entire object...whether that object is a small room or a wall that goes around an entire city. Additionally, only one polymorph spell can affect a target at a time. So, if you polymorph a pebble into a room, casting another polymorph spell will affect the entire room, so you can't change or turn just one wall into something else. Although, you could create a steel room with one spell and use another spell to create a separate stone wall around it. |
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Post by michael on Jun 13, 2011 0:44:24 GMT -5
Gears in a clock is obvious, but books on a bookcase seems very different. A clock is an object on its own. A bookcase is one object, and a book is another.
I don't think anyone would consider a bookcase and the book sitting on it to be two parts of the same object.
Here's another question; Could you polymorph one plank of wood into a bookshelf with books that can then be removed and read on their own? That's essentially polymorphing one object into many, which seems to go well beyond the scope of the spell.
Polymorphing a clock is different, because you actually have to disassemble the clock to get the gear. It becomes a separate object by harvesting the original object for its component parts, like taking organs out of a creature you polymorphed. A book on a bookshelf you just pick up. Whether it sits on the bookshelf or in your hand, it's still its own object.
There's also the issue of where you do draw the line. Is a rock sitting on a table all one object? What about a plate on top of a table? What about a plate in a stack of plates? It seems absurd to me consider any of these one object for the sake of polymorph.
You used the term equipment when referring to the book on the bookcase. When equipment melds into a creature that is polymorphed, I think of that as a special rule for creatures. It's there because if polymorph made you unequip all of your stuff, it would severely reduce its functionality. I think they mention it in the spell description because it's the exception, not because it's the rule. Extending that specific situation to cover everything just makes the spell far more confusing and overpowering.
My proposal would be this: Objects don't get equipment. They can be altered in such a way as to be considered all one item, (like a clock, or a table with nails holding it together) but simply placing an item on another is not enough. A bookcase is a bookcase whether there are books in it or not, and a book is a book whether it sit on a bookcase or not. The combination of the two does not alter the functionality of either, hence they are separate objects. The bookcase cannot "equip" the book.
Independent of that, can air even be considered an object? The only example in the book that even comes close would be using Elemental Body to transform in to an Air Elemental, but they are still tangible and visible. Regular air isn't either of those things. If air isn't an object, it can't be transformed with Polymorph. And if it can't be transformed, there's no reason it should be counted towards the volume limit. (You aren't altering the air inside the structure at all, you're altering the structure itself, and the air simply shifts around it.)
If you can polymorph air, I think this just opens up a whole host of other problems.
What happens if you polymorph something into air? Air has almost no cohesion, there's nothing to keep it from dispersing. When polymorph expires, its molecules are spread who knows how far. Functionally, this turns polymorph into disintigrate.
A level 15 caster can polymorph 11 cubic feet of material; if there were a 10x10x10 room, he could just turn all of the air in the room into solid steel, killing everyone inside. If the doorway were blocked, they wouldn't even get a save. Or why even bother with the whole room? The air in their lungs is connected to the air outside of it, which means you can touch it to cast polymorph; why not just turn all of it into acid?
These are a few quick examples off the top of my head, but I'm sure it could be abused a lot more in game.
For most intents and purposes, air is empty space. It makes everything simpler and more intuitive to treat it that way with polymorph.
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Post by reefwood on Jun 13, 2011 14:48:57 GMT -5
Gears in a clock is obvious, but books on a bookcase seems very different. A clock is an object on its own. A bookcase is one object, and a book is another. I don't think anyone would consider a bookcase and the book sitting on it to be two parts of the same object. I agree. That's why I am trying to look at the possibilities in three different ways: object vs lesser objects that compose a greater object vs multiple objects mashed together. That last category will probably be the trickiest and have the most unique cases and varied ruling. If a book is sit on a shelf that is attached to a wall, you could polymorph the shelf without affecting the wall or the book (which would probably wind up on top of the new shelf's form). But a bookcase piece of furniture with multiple shelves would meld whatever objects are on the shelves...essentially, the objects inside the target object meld like equipment. If you have a locked chest with objects inside and you polymorph the chest, the lock and objects inside meld into the new form instead of just falling off or out. A boulder with a sword stuck into it would have the sword meld into the boulder. Although, if you transmute the boulder to mud, then the sword (and anything else inside that isn't stone) would fall out. No, you cannot polymorph one target object into multiple different objects. Though, if you polymorph a pebble into a clock, the clock will be made up of multiple parts. Maybe if you take off a part, it could revert back to a pebble or maintain its form until the spell ends. I am leaning toward the latter for the sake of simplicity. I agree. The plates would be on top of the new table form. I am not going to bother with air. Either way, it would be pretty useless or impossible to polymorph. If you target one particle of air, that isn't going to make much difference. Or if you can target air, well, air covers a lot of space, so you'd have to be able to affect all the air in the world. Or at least all the air in an airtight space that doesn't connect to air anywhere else. Although, you could probably target stuff in the air like smells or poison gas. And when you polymorph an object with airspace, the widest dimensions count toward the size limit, so a boat that is 10 ft x 20 ft x 5 ft will have the same size limit as a solid block of wood that size, even though the boat has a lot more empty space. I think I posted a bunch about this in the Side Quest II thread, though, my thoughts in this thread are more put together and finalized since I was still wondering about a lot in the other thread. |
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Post by michael on Jun 13, 2011 16:35:12 GMT -5
Ok, that's the part I was missing. It does make sense to handle it that way; I got caught up with all the area calculations for Wall of Stone, I just started conceptualizing PAO strictly in terms of volume of polymorphed material. Size is so much easier.
Perhaps on our next level up, all of us should spend a portion of our rewards package on spellcasting services for Wall of Stone. It's relatively cheap, and its the fastest way to get our base up.
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Post by michael on Jun 13, 2011 16:48:39 GMT -5
Ok, jumping back to the remaining time on our day off, Brion is sending Ghoul and Skeletor out to grab one big boulder each. When they get back, Brion will use his one casting of Wall of Stone to create a stone floor on the construction site. (Wall of Stone must grow out of existing stone, hence the boulders.) It will be a 20x20 stone floor, and 2.6 inches thick.
This stone floor also has Word of Recall cast on it, from the beginning of our most recent session.
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Post by reefwood on Jun 20, 2011 18:57:07 GMT -5
Ok, jumping back to the remaining time on our day off, Brion is sending Ghoul and Skeletor out to grab one big boulder each. When they get back, Brion will use his one casting of Wall of Stone to create a stone floor on the construction site. (Wall of Stone must grow out of existing stone, hence the boulders.) It will be a 20x20 stone floor, and 2.6 inches thick. This stone floor also has Word of Recall cast on it, from the beginning of our most recent session. I haven't looked at this stuff in a week, but it shouldn't be too hard to figure out. First, I need to figure out how long it will take for Ghoul & Skeletor to windwalk to the the Boulder Fields. That shouldn't be much of an issue unless they can carry something larger than a Huge boulder cos that may not be possible to find, or at least very rare and require time to find. Second, icnivad needs to let us know how much spare carrying capacity each one has. Then, we can backwards math that amount to figure out the weight, and through that, the size of the boulder that each can carry. If Brion uses wall of stone to create a stone slab between the boulders, it sounds like you will have a four-sided stone floor that is attached to a boulder on two sides. Also, I feel silly asking this, but... what level is Brion? Cos if he is 14th-level, he can create 14 5-ft squares, but a 20 ft x 20 ft slab of stone would require 16 5-ft squares. And seeing as the boulders may only go to 15 ft x 15 ft (Huge), one of the lengths would probably be limited by that too. You could do a 15 ft wide x 20 ft long stone slab with 12 5-ft squares or even longer than 20 ft if you have the magic limit to make it bigger by placing the boulders further apart, but it may not make sense for the stone slab to go wider than the 15 ft wide boulder border. Although, there may be bigger than Huge boulders, but who knows if the Ghoul & Skeletor can even carry anything close to that size. Maybe they can just carry 5 ft boulders, which may not be useful...unless you want to start out with a 1 square x 14 square stone slab? Anyway, I don't have time to look up all the answers right now, but I will have them ready by Wednesday. |
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Post by michael on Jun 20, 2011 23:44:41 GMT -5
Brion is 14th level. Stone shape can be shaped however you want, so he can make 14 five foot squares that are 3 inches thick, or 16 that are 2.6 inches thick.
And as I understand Wall of Stone, the stone you grow has to extend out of and be supported by existing stone, but it is not constrained by the dimensions of the original stone. You could make 15 ft high wall grow out of a 10 foot tall boulder, for instance. So I shouldn't need a 20 ft wide boulder to make a 20 ft wide floor.
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Post by reefwood on Jun 21, 2011 14:00:19 GMT -5
Brion is 14th level. Stone shape can be shaped however you want, so he can make 14 five foot squares that are 3 inches thick, or 16 that are 2.6 inches thick. Okay, I see it now. I was just looking at the limit in the Effect line, but the description does say that you can double the area by halving the thickness. I was also thinking that any wall larger than the base limit would be at half thickness - even if it is just one square larger - mostly for the sake of simplicity, but I just did the math, and it was pretty quick & easy to figure out, so yeah, I'm fine with doing it all exact-like. And as I understand Wall of Stone, the stone you grow has to extend out of and be supported by existing stone, but it is not constrained by the dimensions of the original stone. You could make 15 ft high wall grow out of a 10 foot tall boulder, for instance. So I shouldn't need a 20 ft wide boulder to make a 20 ft wide floor. No, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me that wall of stone will be somewhat limited by the rock surfaces to which it is adjoined. In all honesty, even having this spell work with boulders seems like a stretch because I don't think this should work with rock that can be held in a human hand. At least not to make a huge wall, and a boulder is just a big rock. This seems like the kind of spell that is more meant to work in a stone building or mountain tunnel or maybe even the bottom of a rock canyon. Not so much between a couple of rocks. However, having the width being limited by the width of the rock surface makes it seem more sensible since this spell is limited to rock surfaces, and a pebble or boulder is not really a surface, so they probably shouldn't qualify, but doing it like this will work for me. Therefore, you can make a stone wall that is 10 ft wide if using a pair of Large boulders, or 5 inches wide if using a pair of handheld rocks. And I had actually thought the boulders were going to be reshaped with stone shape, which does allow for any kind shaping up to the total size limit, so that's why this is just coming up for me now about wall of stone. Anyway, to briefly recap where things left off... it was 6pm when Brion finished his last task, and wind walk will last until 9pm. I will go thru my notes to determine boulder size in the area, distance (bigger boulders were further away), and calculate what Ghoul & Skeletor can carry. Also, in terms of math... 1 cubic foot of stone will weigh 150 lbs, so I am going to look up the equation to determine the volume of a sphere. The carrying capacity of the undead minion will give me the cubic feet they can carry, and if I plug the cubic feet into the equation, that should give me its diameter, which will be the width. |
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Post by reefwood on Jun 21, 2011 14:28:14 GMT -5
Math - Volume of Sphere
Okay, I might need a little help here... or maybe boulders just do weigh a ton of a lot!
This is the equation I found to determine the volume of a sphere:
Volume = 4/3 x Pi x Radius^3
Skeletor can carry another 2,900 lb. If 1 cubic foot (i.e. ft^3) weighs 150 lbs, that means his 2,900 lb equals 19.33333.... cu. ft. I plugged this number into the "sphere volume" equation to determine the radius (R):
19.3 = 4/3 x 3.14 x R^3
19.3 = 4.186666 x R^3
4.6 = R^3
R = 1.66 ft
If the radius is 1.66 ft, that means the diameter is 3.32 ft wide. That seems very not big. At least not for 2,900 lb. Did I do something wrong?
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