OOC (out-of-character)

[reefwood]

Dec 2, 2009 14:38:21 GMT -5 icnivad said:

It looks like improved toughness changed in this version making it not as useful. Would you mind if I swap that out for martial weapon prof. It seems like the most logical choice since he would have needed the weapon proficiency at first level anyway, and if I'd started with these rules, I probably would have let toughness drop.

Toughness has changed. It is now +3 hp and +1 hp for every HD beyond 3, so I believe in the end, it provides a total of 3 hp less than the Beta version. Kind of in a staggered way, so it is 1 hp less at 1st level, 2 hp less at 2nd level, and 3 hp less at 3rd level. Anyway, switching out Toughness (or any other feat) works just as well for me.

Dec 2, 2009 14:38:21 GMT -5 icnivad said:

Another thing that changed pretty drastically is how the system handles animal companions. It looks like they completely removed the alternative animal companions at higher levels, which drastically weakens this feature (A 6 HD horse is not nearly as good as a rhinoceros at level 7 and a dire bear is way better than a 10 HD horse at level 13). If I'd known I could not rely on my mount as much at higher levels, I think I would have shuffled my stats around to focus a little more on spell casting. Would you mind if I swap a couple stats to increase casting at higher levels?

I'm a bit more hesitant to allow this tweak, but you are correct about the animal companion system having changed, and I remember you talking about new mounts down the line. I honestly don't remember too much about the Beta version animal companion, but that probably means it was pretty close to 3.5, and this is certainly very different than 3.5. Druids are pretty bad-ass, so maybe this was done to reel them in somewhat? Anyway, I won't allow an overall shuffling of stats, but I will allow Sir Grolton to swap a single pair of stats, so the 12 in Wis may be swapped for one of the higher physical stats.

[icnivad]

Sounds great. And I think everything else is pretty similar to the beta. I'm going to start completely over with the companion's build since that has changed so drastically that nothing really remains the same.

Couple miscellaneous questions:

overrun + charge: Can I charge on a mount, and have Sir Grolton attempt to attack with his lance, but the mount attempt to overrun, instead of attack himself? Effectively, I would move in a strait line anywhere from 10-double move action, attack with the lance(at 10 ft reach), then the mount would attempt an overrun to knock the target prone(possibly provoking an attack of opportunity if the mount does not have the feat), then if I have movement left, I could continue on my movement(due to the ride by attack feat)

mount spring attack: Does a mount with the spring attack feat mean that the rider also gets use of this feat? Thus being able to attack in the middle of a move. Also, would a mount with a spring attack feat be able to make a charge attack then back off? (rather then move past the opponent in a strait line)

provoking attacks of opportunity on a mount: If I move past a character with combat expertise, would both the rider and the mount provoke an attack of opportunity? Just the mount? Just the rider?

mount tumble: Can mounts take tumble to avoid attacks of opportunity, and if so, does that also affect the rider? I see no rules that say a mount can't tumble, but it feels a little weird to do so while carrying a rider. Maybe it just means the mount is squirmy, rather than somersaulting.

Lunge: "You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn by taking a –2 penalty to your AC until your next turn. You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made." This does not say anything about losing the ability to attack right next to you. Does this mean that you can attack both 5 ft and 10 ft away?

I think that's it for now. Also, It looks like I have a fair amount of gold, are there any restrictions on what I can purchase?

Edit:
one more:
"Animal attacks add the animal's Strength modifier to the damage roll, unless it is its only attack, in which case it adds 1-1/2 its Strength modifier." Does this mean that it gets 1.5 str if it has multiple attacks, but only uses one attack in a round? Or just if it only has one attack available.

[reefwood]

Good questions. My answers are based on these criteria:

1) Your mount is an animal companion.
2) Large creatures take up 4 squares in my world.
3) You share your mount's space(s) during combat.

overrun + charge: Can I charge on a mount, and have Sir Grolton attempt to attack with his lance, but the mount attempt to overrun, instead of attack himself? Effectively, I would move in a strait line anywhere from 10-double move action, attack with the lance(at 10 ft reach), then the mount would attempt an overrun to knock the target prone(possibly provoking an attack of opportunity if the mount does not have the feat), then if I have movement left, I could continue on my movement(due to the ride by attack feat)

The rules state that "Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn." and "As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square" and "If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge)." As to this specific question, the answer is YES. It is legal for the rider to attack when the mount charges, and overrun can be used as part of a charge. The reach, however, would not work in every instance. A gnome on a dog take up only one square, so the gnome's lance and the dog could not reach the same target, but they could attack different targets at their different reaches. However on a horse, the horse has a 5-ft reach to attack an adjacent target, and the rider count one of the back squares as his space for his attack, and therefore, be considered 10 ft away and able to reach with a lance.

mount spring attack: Does a mount with the spring attack feat mean that the rider also gets use of this feat? Thus being able to attack in the middle of a move. Also, would a mount with a spring attack feat be able to make a charge attack then back off? (rather then move past the opponent in a strait line)

Spring Attack only benefits the creature with the feat, and a Charge is a full-round action, so the answers here are mostly NO and NO. If a mount is able to take SA, the rider would still be subject to attacks of opportunity from the target. Although, the mount could use this feat to move before and after an attack in any direction as allowed in SA and not have to move in a straight line like required by Ride-By Attack. And I suppose the rider could still make a single melee attack in the middle of the mount's move since it would be could be done by Readying an attack to use when in reach of the target. Also, a rider with SA cannot use this feat while mounted since the mount is the creature moving, not the rider.

provoking attacks of opportunity on a mount: If I move past a character with combat expertise, would both the rider and the mount provoke an attack of opportunity? Just the mount? Just the rider?

I think you mean Combat Reflexes, but YES, the rider and mount would be subject to attacks of opportunity.

mount tumble: Can mounts take tumble to avoid attacks of opportunity, and if so, does that also affect the rider? I see no rules that say a mount can't tumble, but it feels a little weird to do so while carrying a rider. Maybe it just means the mount is squirmy, rather than somersaulting.

I was about to say NO and NO but then realized that Tumble in no longer a skill in Pathfinder. This ability is now part of Acrobatics, so now my answers are YES and NO. If anything, a squirming mount would probably put the rider at greater danger, but I won't impose that either. However, if the rider attempts something on a mount that is using acrobatics, s/he may receive a -2 penalty on the attempt based on DM discretion.

Lunge: "You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn by taking a –2 penalty to your AC until your next turn. You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made." This does not say anything about losing the ability to attack right next to you. Does this mean that you can attack both 5 ft and 10 ft away?

This is a bit fuzzy. I went back & forth for a moment, but reach is usually based on creature size and weapon reach. Reach weapons usually can't attack closer targets, but natural weapons usually can attack targets closer than their full reach. Since this feat seems to augment your "natural reach" and not the actual weapon, I think this mean that you can attack everything within your normal reach AND targets 5 ft beyond. Also note that the extra reach only lasts during your turn, so attacks of opportunity do not gain the extra reach.

I think that's it for now. Also, It looks like I have a fair amount of gold, are there any restrictions on what I can purchase?

No spending limit, but let's stick with items in the Pathfinder book for now. You can make adjustments, like Gloves of Dexterity +1 or some other odd number instead of just the +2, +4, etc, but no new creations quite yet.

Edit:
one more:
"Animal attacks add the animal's Strength modifier to the damage roll, unless it is its only attack, in which case it adds 1-1/2 its Strength modifier." Does this mean that it gets 1.5 str if it has multiple attacks, but only uses one attack in a round? Or just if it only has one attack available.

This means how many attacks the creature has available, not how many attacks it makes. A horse has multiple attacks, so the primary attack uses the full Str mod and secondary attacks are made at a -5 penalty and only use half Str mod.

[reefwood]

Dec 2, 2009 16:35:12 GMT -5 icnivad said:

overrun + charge: Can I charge on a mount, and have Sir Grolton attempt to attack with his lance, but the mount attempt to overrun, instead of attack himself? Effectively, I would move in a strait line anywhere from 10-double move action, attack with the lance(at 10 ft reach), then the mount would attempt an overrun to knock the target prone(possibly provoking an attack of opportunity if the mount does not have the feat), then if I have movement left, I could continue on my movement(due to the ride by attack feat)

My initial answer overlooked the part about having Ride-By Attack and assumed the attack would happen after the Charge ended, but for Sir Grolton, the answer is still YES, if successful. Based on his specific build, you should be able to have your mount Charge, use Ride-By Attack to have the rider attack with the lance at 10 ft, and have the mount Overrun when it reaches the target. What happens next depends on the Overrun. Failure could result in the mount dying and rider prone on the ground in front of the target, but success means the mount could continue its movement.

Without Ride-By Attack, I believe that the mount could Charge and Overrun, but the rider could not attack until the mount ended its Charge (i.e. stopped).

[icnivad]

wait, what? mount dead if you fail your overrun? I'm pretty sure you just stop.

Alternatively could the mount trip at the end of a charge instead? It looks like overrun could be used if I had to go through their square, and trip if I do do not want to go through their square. I might have to invest in both.

edit:

However on a horse, the horse has a 5-ft reach to attack an adjacent target, and the rider count one of the back squares as his space for his attack, and therefore, be considered 10 ft away and able to reach with a lance.

So, you're saying that with a lance, on a mount, I threaten both 5 feet away as well as everything 10 feet away?

[reefwood]

Dec 2, 2009 19:06:22 GMT -5 icnivad said:

wait, what? mount dead if you fail your overrun? I'm pretty sure you just stop.

Alternatively could the mount trip at the end of a charge instead? It looks like overrun could be used if I had to go through their square, and trip if I do do not want to go through their square. I might have to invest in both.

Ha, sorry, I did make it sound that way, but no, I didn't mean your mount would die if it lost the Overrun check. I more meant that in a worst case scenario, your mount could be brought below 0 hp by an attack of opportunity. And you're right, losing the Overrun check just means you stop.

YES, a Trip attempt can be made at the end of a Charge in place of a regular melee attack. Just keep in mind that it takes 2 feats to reach Improved Overrun or Improved Trip, so 4 feats to gain them all, and your animal companion only has 2 feats with Sir Grolton at 3rd level.

edit:

However on a horse, the horse has a 5-ft reach to attack an adjacent target, and the rider count one of the back squares as his space for his attack, and therefore, be considered 10 ft away and able to reach with a lance.

So, you're saying that with a lance, on a mount, I threaten both 5 feet away as well as everything 10 feet away?

I almost want to back peddle when you say it like that, and maybe I will if new rules down the road say otherwise, but for now, I believe this makes sense with the rules as written. Being on a Large mount means that with a 5-ft reach you can attack any adjacent square because you are considered to be in each square... and when targeting a Large creature, you can choose to target a farther square if it provides you with a better attack (to use a weapon with 10-ft reach or avoid the penalty for shooting into melee or to avoid cover)... so I don't see why you can't lean back in your horse (i.e. be in the square 10 ft away) to stab at the target in front of your mount with a 10-ft reach weapon. I think this also falls into the line of thinking that you are constantly moving in your area, so if you are in 4 squares, you can attack with the lance while you are moving in the square that is 10 ft from the target.

[icnivad]

ok. Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, I was assuming I could only get to trip or overrun, and upon closer inspection, the int 13 requirement for combat expertise makes trip pretty impossible to get.(not to mention I would need an int of at least 3 to take feats not on the animal list) Would a natural trip attack(like on a wolf) allow a creature to qualify for improved trip?

Ok, one more clarification regarding reach: You mentioned that Lunge augments natural reach. Does that mean that it would augment my natural reach by 5 feet before the reach weapon, thus giving 15-20 ft like a large creature? Or that it would add on 5 ft at the end, giving me 10-15 ft? (with a reach weapon normally giving an attack at 10 ft.)

[reefwood]

Dec 3, 2009 13:22:42 GMT -5 icnivad said:

ok. Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, I was assuming I could only get to trip or overrun, and upon closer inspection, the int 13 requirement for combat expertise makes trip pretty impossible to get.(not to mention I would need an int of at least 3 to take feats not on the animal list) Would a natural trip attack(like on a wolf) allow a creature to qualify for improved trip?

Good point about Combat Expertise, and NO.

Ok, one more clarification regarding reach: You mentioned that Lunge augments natural reach. Does that mean that it would augment my natural reach by 5 feet before the reach weapon, thus giving 15-20 ft like a large creature? Or that it would add on 5 ft at the end, giving me 10-15 ft? (with a reach weapon normally giving an attack at 10 ft.)

Your natural reach changes, but nothing about the weapon changes. If your weapon has a reach of 10 ft, it can reach 15 ft when you use Lunge.

[reefwood]

Game Time

We're set to play the next War Stories adventure tomorrow (Tuesday). I assume 7pm works for everyone. Also, if people want to test run mechanics ahead of time, feel free to stop by as early as 6:30pm to do that.

---

Rank & File

Sir Grolton and Minion will start off this adventure with the rank of Sergeant. Nero has been demoted to Private. If Michael is able to play, Brion Shaw will be a Corporal.

The basic breakdown is that Sir Grolton & Minion are the ones mainly being sent to figure out what happened at Longtree, and Nero is their guide with firsthand knowledge. Of course, this makes for a very small unit, so as Sergeants and leaders of their own small divisions, Sir Grolton & Minion are told to bring the best under their command on this assignment. What that means is that icnivad & Rabbit each get to create a 2nd-level Corporal to bring with them on his assignment. Details on this will be posted in the Longtree thread shortly, and this brings the party size up to 5. If Michael is able to play, Brion will be added as a healer/channeler, and I'm not going to give him an NPC simply because it doesn't seem like he will have the time to create one, and I don't want anyone else to get caught up in thinking about what Brion or another NPC can provide since it seems like they most likely won't be in this one anyway.

[icnivad]

cool. Should we create a 2nd level corporal with the same rules that we made these characters?

[reefwood]

Dec 7, 2009 17:04:10 GMT -5 icnivad said:

cool. Should we create a 2nd level corporal with the same rules that we made these characters?

Nope. Different rules. They will be posted shortly.

[reefwood]

Thanks again to everyone for coming out tonight! I can't believe that one battle took up practically the entire session, but I had fun with it and hope there weren't too many lulls. Also, it was my first time running a game mostly on a laptop, and sometimes I got lost in all the windows open on my screen. Anyway, a few things real quick before I crawl into bed...

1) Post any questions about story or mechanics. It may take a while for me to answer, but may as well get them asked while they're fresh.

2) There was interest in having an online story thread for the characters to chat after the battle / before resting, so I'll try to get that going soon. It may just go in [The Mystery at Longtree] thread.

3) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we left things off with Sermon & Crow on watch with everyone else resting, and the whole group is on top of a hill. All the enemy troops were killed and laid by the side of the road, except for the gnome who is unconscious. Is the gnome bound? No one has rope, but you can use scraps of clothing from the dead soldiers. Or if there is something else you want to use, just let me know. I assume the gnome is on the hill too.

4) I got a little ahead of myself by having everyone roll Will saves, but we can pick it up there next time, and things will play out nearly the same.

[reefwood]

I haven't bothered putting much thought into the details of the overall war or even giving names to the two sides fighting it but since a question came up about that last night, I'll try to figure something out for next time.

What I can tell you from the first adventure [Storming the Beach] is that the continent is called Vallest, and you are on the Hydrahead Peninsula.

[icnivad]

Thanks for running that game, I had a good time with it. Even though Sir Grolton almost died a couple times in the midst of figuring out the new system, it made our eventual victory all the more glorious. That was a perfect difficulty challenge in my book, and easily could have gone the other way if rolls had been different, or if Michael had decided to not join us.

And yeah, we would attempt to tie up the gnome after taking all of his possessions as best we could, even searching all of them to see if any of the enemy has rope.

Also, worth noting, since you briefly mentioned that the horses tried to escape but didn't delve into it. Loyal Steed would not be tied up as the other horses since he is a companion, and I wouldn't tie him up any more than I would a dog or a hawk.

And I've thought about the whole killing of the enemy troops, and the more I think about it, the more I think that Sir Grolton would not be ok with this. Since I assume we can't start next session before killing them, I'd like to think that Sir Grolton had nightmares about this that night and considers his actions as ranking officer completely disgraceful and an utter letdown of his command.

And here's a system question:
If I start as shown on the left, with E=enemy, A=ally, and G=grolton. Can I charge up 10 feet to make an attack on enemy over the shoulder of ally? Wasn't sure if this would be considered blocking my charge since I don't actually need to move into or through ally's square.

..E..   ..E..
..A..   ..A..
.....   ..GG.
.....   ..GG.
..GG.   .....
..GG.   .....


[Rabbit]

Dec 9, 2009 4:39:47 GMT -5 reefwood said:

3) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we left things off with Sermon & Crow on watch with everyone else resting, and the whole group is on top of a hill. All the enemy troops were killed and laid by the side of the road, except for the gnome who is unconscious. Is the gnome bound? No one has rope, but you can use scraps of clothing from the dead soldiers. Or if there is something else you want to use, just let me know. I assume the gnome is on the hill too.

Sermon and Crow are on watch. And we would use scrap/belts from the dead to bound the gnome. And a cloth will be used to blindfold and gag him as well.

4) I got a little ahead of myself by having everyone roll Will saves, but we can pick it up there next time, and things will play out nearly the same.

So as far as we are conerned we are on top of the hill at rest? No problem.