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Post by reefwood on May 4, 2011 17:28:06 GMT -5
Moving Faster Than Fast
I haven't bothered to think about this for riding horses and whatnot because it isn't a big deal. At least not when moving twice as fast as normal, but when you are moving 20x faster, that seems like it should make some difference. Also, this isn't the sort of thing that would come up during combat since you usually don't go faster than fast while fighting, and this is more geared toward overland movement anyway, so it would be more for Perception and Survival checks. Here are a couple ideas:
#1) Your top speed is your normal increment. A human has a speed of 30 ft and can run at speed of 120 ft per round. This is your base increment. Even if you are slowed down by armor or load, or sped up by magic, your base increment does not change. But a permanent increase, like the Fleet or Run feats, would change your base increment. If you exceed your base increment, you receive a -2 penalty on any applicable skill check, and that increase by -2 for each additional increment. So, a human with a 120 ft increment that windwalks at 600 ft per round will receive a -8 penalty, and if the human went 610 ft per round, it would receive a -10 penalty. Meanwhile, a dwarf with a base increment of 80 ft per round that windwalks at 600 ft per round receives a -14 penalty.
#2) 100 ft is your normal increment. If you move more than 100 ft in a round, you receive a -2 penalty, more than 200 ft is a -4 penalty, and it continues increasing by -2 for every 100 ft you exceed, so windwalkers would receive a -10 penalty, and someone going at 610 ft per round would receive a -12 penalty.
Any preferences? The only difference is that #1 can vary between people while #2 is the same for everyone, and right now, all the PCs have the same base speed anyway. This will probably just come up during Overland Movement. Though, if you make a Perception check in combat while your mount makes a double movement on a mount, I suppose that would count too, but that sort of thing rarely happens.
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Post by reefwood on May 4, 2011 23:39:26 GMT -5
Concentration checks for Concentration
Looks like taking damage while concentrating is the same as taking damage while casting, so I did make the Concentration DCs for Nim too easy (half damage dealt). That's okay, though. I'm fine with the players identifying the properties of the Headstone, and I will play it correctly from here on out.
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Post by reefwood on May 5, 2011 19:14:26 GMT -5
Determining Monster PC Character LevelI am still trying to figure out and fine tune how to best balance the CR increase, but no matter what, Nim will have at least 1 level to "make up" and possibly several, and there's no way to know ahead of time since it will be random, so you should be ready to give up on gaining Wizard levels if you attempt this. However, Nim will still earn rewards, and through them, he can expand his spell access in a more roundabout way. He can continue to buy scrolls of the spell levels he knows to add more spells to his spellbook. He can buy scrolls of higher level spells as one-time use items that require a caster level check. He can buy wands of lower level spells but increase their caster level based on the CL he selects, and this won't be useful for all spells, but it could give some spells more power than he could cast himself. He can create a staff with higher level spells that he cannot recharge, but he can have someone at the army recharge it with rewards. However, none of this will help his abilities that depend on class level. Have you settled into a way of doing this yet? I understand the complexity when CR's don't really work the same across the board. Where a wizard turned zombie clearly wouln't gain as much as a fighter turned zombie. There's a couple things that need to be figured out. First is Nim's CR as an advanced zombie lord. His final CR may be higher based on random zombie variants, but this is a good starting point. It is a little weird, though, because his CR will determine his character level, but that is not how it worked for the monster cohort level. The monster cohort level was higher than the CR. But maybe that's just a cohort thing. Also, monster Nim is being created a little backwards than a normal monster Wizard, but that has more to do with how the Skeletal Champion/Zombie Lord templates work than Nim being turned into a monster. A zombie lord has a CR +1 higher than a regular zombie with the same HD. And yes, normally, adding PCs level to a monster does depend on whether is a combat monster or spell monster or something else... unless it is a template. The key class for a template is the same as the base class' key class. The only exceptions are actually the skeleton and zombie because they lose their Intelligence, so they have no key class since they cannot take class levels. But since a Skeletal Champion/Zombie Lord does retain its Intelligence, it is probably treated the same as any template. Anyway... A zombie with 2 racial HD is CR 1/2, so a zombie lord with 2 racial HD is CR 1.5 and an advanced zombie lord with 2 racial HD is CR 2.5. Add 14 levels of Wizard and that totals CR 16.5, and this game usually rounds down, so let's say it is CR 16, and that make his character level 16, so Nim would have 2 levels to make up. And even if the zombie lord template should be less than CR +1 for a caster, the advanced template is certainly more than CR +1 for any PC, so it still makes good sense for the two to total CR +2. The second thing is what to do when he catches up. Because from that point, your progression will eventually earn you an extra level between the other PC levels. The easiest way to handle that will be for that level to only require 2 APs instead of 4 APs. That works a little wonky since normally APs reset to 0, but we can make an exception for that level, but the rewards you earn will still depend on the APs spent (so if you have 3 APs, you can opt to only use 2 to level and have 1 AP left, but then, you'll only get 2 AP of rewards)...but in all likelihood, War Stories will not even reach that level, especially if the random zombie variants increase CR. But I am having a little trouble figuring out when that level would happen. There is a section in the back of the Bestiary titled Monsters as PCs that I am using to determine how many levels Nim needs to make up to proceed after Nim makes up his monster levels, but I am having some trouble understanding it. Or rather, it looks like the rules don't match up with the example: The rule says that when a normal PC gains 3 levels, a monster PC gains 4 levels, and this extra level for the monster should come between the 2nd and 3rd PC levels. They both gain 1 level, they both gain 2 levels, the monster gains a 3rd level, and finally, they both gain another level (3 total for PC, 4 total for monster PC). Going off the example in the first paragraph, lets say there is Human Ftr6 and Minotaur Brb2. When the Human gains 3 levels to Ftr9, the Minotaur Brb2 should gain 4 levels to Brb6, and it should proceed like this: Starting level: Ftr6 and Brb2 (6 HD) Ftr gain level #1: Ftr7 and Brb 3 (7 HD) Ftr gain level #2: Ftr8 and Brb 4 (8 HD) between #2 & #3: Ftr8 and Brb5 (9 HD) Ftr gain level #3: Ftr9 and Brb6 (10 HD) But the second paragraph example looks more like this: Starting level: Ftr6 and Brb2 (6 HD) between Start & #1: Ftr6 and Brb3 (7 HD) Ftr gain level #1: Ftr7 and Brb 4 (8 HD) Ftr gain level #2: Ftr8 and Brb 5 (9 HD) between #2 & #3: Ftr8 and Brb6 (10 HD) Ftr gain level #3: Ftr9 and Brb7 (11 HD) Ftr gain level #4: Ftr10 and Brb8 (12 HD) It looks like the rule outlines a different progression than the one given in the example. Or am I just misreading something?
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Post by icnivad on May 5, 2011 23:05:34 GMT -5
I was looking at the variants too, and it looks like about 6 out of 8 of the ones that work at www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/zombie have +1 CR. I think I'd be ok with +2 LA, but does this mean that with 3 variants, we're looking at an average of around +4 LA? Maybe +5? No possibility of +2? None of the variants actually look very helpful for a PC. Stuff like exploding death. Or you might have a wholly different list of variants you're looking at. |
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Post by icnivad on May 5, 2011 23:17:29 GMT -5
I'm not really sure if it makes sense to have Nimarious "make up his monster levels" then "level up faster after making them up". What is the point of instilling two opposing rulesets? Both from a balance stance, or from a roleplay stance.
Maybe he's spending most of his brainpower learning how to be undead, and forgets his studies for a while.
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Post by reefwood on May 6, 2011 0:08:00 GMT -5
I was looking at the variants too, and it looks like about 6 out of 8 of the ones that work at www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/zombie have +1 CR. I think I'd be ok with +2 LA, but does this mean that with 3 variants, we're looking at an average of around +4 LA? Maybe +5? No possibility of +2? None of the variants actually look very helpful for a PC. Stuff like exploding death. Or you might have a wholly different list of variants you're looking at. I don't know what is listed at that website, but you really shouldn't be looking up all the possible zombie variants to figure out odds or how "worth it" they might be. That's part of the reason it is random. It may not work out well for Nim, but that's the gamble, and I don't even know the answer. As I posted in the story thread, yes, Nim could wind up with CR +5, so you should be ready to give up on taking Wizard levels, but you can still earn rewards to keep upgrading with equipment. Although, there is a chance that the total is just CR +2, but yes, be ready for it to be more than that. I'm not really sure if it makes sense to have Nimarious "make up his monster levels" then "level up faster after making them up". What is the point of instilling two opposing rulesets? Both from a balance stance, or from a roleplay stance. Maybe he's spending most of his brainpower learning how to be undead, and forgets his studies for a while. If Nim does this, he gets a huge boost to all his ability scores which increases all his abilities, including spellcasting DCs, so that is why he has to make up levels. Eventually, these bonuses may not have as big an impact as the other PCs get further ahead in class levels, so that is why he will get one "fast level" (or maybe two if he winds up with a CR +4 or higher). These are not opposing rule sets. They simply handle different aspects of this change. One helps to correct the imbalance that happens right away, and the other helps to maintain the balance down the road. They both help keep balance. If anything, Nim wins out on the overall balance issue because he gets to jump ahead of everyone else, and then he gets to keep pace. But yes, this means that his caster level will fall behind, and if that is more important to Nim, then he should stick with being a Wizard. I'm totally cool with it either way, but you can't get it both ways. Have to choose one. |
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Post by reefwood on May 6, 2011 11:56:25 GMT -5
Advanced Zombie LordWow, the Zombie Lord is awesome! I looked through all of the traits, and I think this is everything that would change from a base creature with no existing racial HD. 2 racial HD +6 STR & DEX +4 INT, WIS, and CHA +4 Natural Armor 4 + Int mod x 2 skill points Toughness +3 to Will saves (in addition to increased WIS) +1 BAB DR 5/slashing Channel Resistance +4 1 random zombie variant per 4 HD Undead Traits I kinda wish Brion were more ideologically inclined towards this, but it doesn't really make sense for him. I totally think Nim should go for it, though. The only down side is the two caster levels you won't gain, but I think the immediate gains outweigh those long term losses. Maybe you could wait until you're level 15 to make the sacrifice so you have access to your 8th level spells? And all mechanics aside, it would be really awesome if Nim became undead. Here is a complete list of the changes for a human that gets turned into an advanced zombie lord, but the random zombie variants add other changes and/or modify or replace some of the standard changes, so the final package will be at least a little different, and it will most likely not be the same for any two people since it is random. 2 racial HD 1 feat from racial HD+6 STR & DEX +4 INT, WIS, and CHA +4 Natural Armor 4 + Int mod x 2 skill points Climb, Disguise, Fly, Intimidate, Know (arcana), Know (religion), Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Stealth become class skillsToughness +3 to Will saves (in addition to increased WIS) +1 BAB 1 Slam attack (1d6 +Str mod x1.5)DR 5/slashing Channel Resistance +4 1 random zombie variant per 4 HD Undead Traits• No Constitution score. Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution (such as when calculating a breath weapon's DC). • Darkvision 60 feet. • Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms). • Immunity to bleed, death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning. • Not subject to nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Constitution, Dexterity, and Strength), as well as to exhaustion and fatigue effects. • Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature's Intelligence score. • Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless). • Not at risk of death from massive damage, but is immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points. • Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead. • Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry. • Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. • Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep. I should add that this magic item is not designed to turn PCs into better PCs. It turns people into monsters. Being a monster may be better for one PC but worse for another PC, but no matter what, both receive all the changes (+/-variants), and the changes increase character level. The balance I was trying to figure out for the transformation was not for individual characters but for the overall numbers. Because if two PCs received the same changes, it wouldn't be fair for one PC to make up 2 levels but another PC to only make up 1 level. Maybe a better way to look at this is as a change that comes with a cost. The cost is the same regardless of who is paying, and it is entirely up to the player if they want to pay that cost. Also, while the overall benefits are TREMENDOUS, there are drawbacks that could play out in mechanics, strategy, or roleplaying. For example, Brion's healing burst doesn't help undead, and while undead become immune to a ridiculous amount of spells, some spells hurt them more, and an undead PC will be barred from places that undead are not allowed to enter.
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Post by reefwood on May 6, 2011 13:32:48 GMT -5
Re: Monsters as PCs
I figured out how the total advancement will work! The rules and the example are correct in the back of the Bestiary, but the example isn't explained very well. Or at least I couldn't make sense of it because te example starts off at the end of what it is trying to explain. The rules say that for every 3 levels a normal PCs gains, a monster PC gains 4 levels, and the extra level comes between PC levels 2 and 3... I figured the example would start at the 1st PC level gained, but it starts off between PC levels 2 and 3, which is why the extra level comes right away in the example, which was throwing me off. Anyway, I don't know if that made much sense, but here is what it means...
Once levels are made up, the next 2 levels proceed as normal. So, if you gain CR +2... first you make up 2 levels, then you gain 2 levels as normal, and then you gain 1 level between the other PCs levels, and from that point, you level up normally again and forever.
This is how it looks for CR +2:
PC 14 and CR +2 = Lvl 16
4+ AP to make up Lvl 15
4+ AP to make up Lvl 16
4+ AP to gain PC 15 (Lvl 17)
4+ AP to gain PC 16 (Lvl 18)
2+ AP to gain PC 17 (Lvl 19)
4+ AP to gain PC 18 (Lvl 20)
This is how it looks for CR +3:
PC 14 and CR +3 = Lvl 17
4+ AP to make up Lvl 15
4+ AP to make up Lvl 16
4+ AP to make up Lvl 17
4+ AP to gain PC 15 (Lvl 18)
4+ AP to gain PC 16 (Lvl 19)
2+ AP to gain PC 17 (Lvl 20)
This is how it looks for CR +4:
PC 14 and CR +4 = Lvl 18
4+ AP to make up Lvl 15
4+ AP to make up Lvl 16
4+ AP to make up Lvl 17
4+ AP to make up Lvl 18
4+ AP to gain PC 15 (Lvl 19)
4+ AP to gain PC 16 (Lvl 20)
2+ AP to gain PC 17 (Lvl 21)
This is how it looks for CR +5:
PC 14 and CR +5 = Lvl 19
4+ AP to make up Lvl 15
4+ AP to make up Lvl 16
4+ AP to make up Lvl 17
4+ AP to make up Lvl 18
4+ AP to make up Lvl 19
4+ AP to gain PC 15 (Lvl 20)
4+ AP to gain PC 16 (Lvl 21)
2+ AP to gain PC 17 (Lvl 22)
And for comparison, this is a regular PC with CR +0:
PC 14
4+ AP to gain PC 15
4+ AP to gain PC 16
4+ AP to gain PC 17
4+ AP to gain PC 18
4+ AP to gain PC 19
4+ AP to gain PC 20
Another thing to keep in mind is that War Stories will probably wrap up after 3 more missions. I'm not positive about this, but I know what the next mission will be and the last mission, and I have an idea for something in between, but that may all. It would be cool to reach Level 20, but oddly enough, none of the current builds get a super special ability at Level 20 anyway, and we will at least have had 20 missions. Also, if anyone does survive the last mission and wants to tie up loose ends, I would be up for one last side quest too. And seeing how WS happens about once a month, this would take us through the summer, so it's not like it will be over soon.
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Post by michael on May 6, 2011 16:45:29 GMT -5
I was looking at the variants too, and it looks like about 6 out of 8 of the ones that work at www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/zombie have +1 CR. I think I'd be ok with +2 LA, but does this mean that with 3 variants, we're looking at an average of around +4 LA? Maybe +5? No possibility of +2? None of the variants actually look very helpful for a PC. Stuff like exploding death. Or you might have a wholly different list of variants you're looking at. I don't know what is listed at that website, but you really shouldn't be looking up all the possible zombie variants to figure out odds or how "worth it" they might be. That's part of the reason it is random. It may not work out well for Nim, but that's the gamble, and I don't even know the answer. As I posted in the story thread, yes, Nim could wind up with CR +5, so you should be ready to give up on taking Wizard levels, but you can still earn rewards to keep upgrading with equipment. Although, there is a chance that the total is just CR +2, but yes, be ready for it to be more than that. I think Icnivad has a point beyond "Is it worth it for Nim." For example, the Fast Zombie template is a CR +1. With it, you gain +2 DEX, you lose DR 5/slashing, and you are no longer staggered. The thing is, not being staggered is by far the most beneficial trait from this template, and Zombie Lords already aren't staggered. Without that bonus, the Fast Zombie template is just a roughly equal trade off, maybe even a detrimental one. The +1 CR for this template was assuming the template was added onto a normal zombie, but it doesn't make a Zombie Lord any more challenging. I haven't looked at any of the other templates, but a lot of their bonuses might be ones the Zombie Lord already has, or ones you could get from another randomly rolled template. There could conceivably be a template that offers Nimarius absolutely no new abilities, yet still increases the CR. Templates added onto other templates seems very imprecise. Maybe the best way to figure out the CR increase is to make a list of the net gain of features from the 3 randomly rolled templates. Traits that double up don't increase the challenge, so they don't add to the CR. Once you have a list of all the new traits Nim would gain, you chose an appropriate CR increase for adding all of those traits to a creature. Of course, if War Stories is wrapping up soon, all of this might be a moot point. |
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Post by reefwood on May 6, 2011 17:16:35 GMT -5
I think Icnivad has a point beyond "Is it worth it for Nim." For example, the Fast Zombie template is a CR +1. With it, you gain +2 DEX, you lose DR 5/slashing, and you are no longer staggered. The thing is, not being staggered is by far the most beneficial trait from this template, and Zombie Lords already aren't staggered. Without that bonus, the Fast Zombie template is just a roughly equal trade off, maybe even a detrimental one. The +1 CR for this template was assuming the template was added onto a normal zombie, but it doesn't make a Zombie Lord any more challenging. Where does it say that the Fast Zombie template is CR +1? |
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Post by michael on May 6, 2011 17:30:11 GMT -5
It... doesn't? Huh. Ok, well, the theory behind the argument is still a decent one, it just... probably won't be an issue.
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Post by reefwood on May 6, 2011 17:45:19 GMT -5
It... doesn't? Huh. Ok, well, the theory behind the argument is still a decent one, it just... probably won't be an issue. Okay, I just wanted to make sure that you weren't seeing something that I was missing this whole time. The variants are mostly designed to stack, and the ones that don't stack say so, and there are several that do not change CR, and there are multiple reasons why I am not putting every variant into this pool. |
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Post by reefwood on May 10, 2011 14:00:27 GMT -5
Greater teleport
I did some digging about greater teleport on the boards, and people were pretty evenly split on whether the caster can easily go anywhere or needs good info on the destination for the spell to be successful, so it does seem somewhat open to interpretation.
What does seem clear is that there are no levels of familiarity. The spell takes you exactly where you want to go, or it takes you back to where you started. Either way, the spell is used.
The other clear thing is that you cannot teleport into an object, accidentally or purposefully. I'd say that if you did this accidentally, the spell would take you back to where you started. If you did this purposefully, the spell would simply fail. Either way, the spell gets used up and you don't actually go anywhere.
As for the destination, you must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination, or at least a reliable description. My interpretation of this is that the PC will have a clear idea of any significant location that he has been as long as the player can recall the basic details. Significant could be a location where a major event happened or somewhere the PC has spent a lot of time. A location you would remember. "The place where we fought the dragons" is not a good description since it says nothing about the location, but "The place in the swamp next to the miner's pit" would be sufficient because a lot happened there, and the squad was there for several days.
However, there are many more places you have been that are not significant. If you can provide the layout and specific details, you can get there, but if you cannot, you don't go anywhere. I will allow an Int check in these circumstance because that is how I have been handling memory. Or the player can make a quick sketch of the layout, and if that layout exists, you wind up at that location. Which also means that if you think of or sketch out a location that exists, but it turns out to not be the location you wanted, you will still wind up there cos it exists and it is the place you thought you wanted to go.
Taking an example from the story thread...if Garm said he wanted to teleport next to the 30 ft oak tree with a woodpecker hole that stands next to a red rose bush, that would be sufficient to take him to that location. But if he remembered it wrong, and it was actually an elm tree next to a berry bush, the spell would fail...unless the place he stated did exist, and then, he would wind up there...of course, not just anywhere in the world but in the same forest since the other unstated details are more likely to be the same like grass and other foliage and whatnot...but I guess if he did end up on the other side of the world, he could just use his next turn to come back.
Also, I realized Garm's original technique would have been futile anyway because putting lights every 360 ft wouldn't help show the path if people can only see 80 ft, so I suppose it was a moot point in the end for this situation, but it was still good to figure this out should it come up in a more important situation down the road.
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Post by reefwood on May 11, 2011 13:54:30 GMT -5
Intimidate and UndeadI did some digging into this, and it seems like a topic that is open to interpretation. Undead are not immune to fear itself, but they are immune to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms), but I think most fear effects are mind-affecting, so as a result, magic will usually not scare them. However, the chill touch spell (necromancy) and Turn Undead feat can cause undead to flee, so there are magic ways to scare them away too. Intimidate is not magic, so it seems like fair game to use it against undead, but like most social skills, some basic caveats seem in order. You cannot Intimidate mindless undead (or other mindless creatures) or creatures immune to fear, and bonuses vs fear would apply to the defender's DC. Intimidate can be used in two ways: - Force an opponent to act friendly toward you for 1d6 × 10 minutes, and this requires 1 minute of conversation, so if you don't have the time or a shared language, this option is out.
- Use a standard action to demoralize an opponent within 30 feet who can clearly see and hear you. This also seems to indicate that a level of understanding is necessary, but I think you can attempt this at a penalty on creatures that don't understand you. Probably -2 vs other humanoids who don't share your language, or -5 vs other creatures that don't share your language. A human who yells in Common at an orc who only understands Orc would receive the -2, and the human who yells at a bear would receive -5 (in addition to a -4 penalty if it is a Large bear), but if the human was a druid in bear form, then perhaps it would only be -2, or perhaps no penalty if this druid is very familiar with bears.
And of course there could be other circumstantial modifiers. One soldier among many would not get a bonus to their DC, but the leader surrounded by his many soldiers probably would, as could someone in a "safe" spot like inside a castle.
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Post by icnivad on May 11, 2011 22:48:28 GMT -5
Are we playing next Monday?
Reefwood, I think I remember hearing something about our next session being the next day(Day 75). Is that correct? Since the Zombie Headstone takes 24 hours to turn a sacrificed creature into a zombie lord, it seems like Nim might have to wait for his next time off. This is especially true if we are going to play the following day. Since, the sacrifice might halt Nimarious from gaining any more necromancer levels for the rest of this game, I think I might wait till after he hits level 15, so he has level 8 spells. This will hopefully coincide with some time off, anyway. Level 17 has crossed my mind, too, so he gets level 9 spells.
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