OOC (out-of-character)

[michael]

Scheduling - Chapter 20

How do people feel about playing the first part of the last chapter in two weeks? Either Tues the 16th, or Wed the 17, or Thur the 18th?

I think I could do any of those nights, but I have a preference for Wednesday or Thursday.

[Rabbit]

Aug 2, 2011 13:20:52 GMT -5 michael said:

Scheduling - Chapter 20

How do people feel about playing the first part of the last chapter in two weeks? Either Tues the 16th, or Wed the 17, or Thur the 18th?

I think I could do any of those nights, but I have a preference for Wednesday or Thursday.

I would prefer to play Thursday.

[reefwood]

Re: Scheduling

Aug 4, 2011 10:43:40 GMT -5 Rabbit said:

Aug 2, 2011 13:20:52 GMT -5 michael said:

I think I could do any of those nights, but I have a preference for Wednesday or Thursday.

I would prefer to play Thursday.

Okay, we are set to play part 1 of Chapter 20 on Thursday the 18th at 6pm. Woo!

[icnivad]

So, I might actually use PAO this next level, so i wanted to clarify some stuff. We might have covered some of this, so I apologies if I'm double covering ground, but I figure we should get this nailed down so there's no ambiguity.

In the polymorph spell, I assume you lose your natural movement
type since you lose your natural body(including wings). It seems like a creature who flies magically (like a nightmare) might not lose this. Is that correct?

When it says you gain the listed ability in the polymorph spell, if they specify the details of the ability (like Fly 120), that means you gain fly 120 whenever the creature you turn into can fly, correct? Or do I gain the creature's fly, or fly 120, whichever is smaller?

What about when the ability isn't described? Like "breath weapon" Does the recipient gain the breath weapon as written in the creature's description?

The specific polymorph in question is Beast Shape IV (via Greater Polymorph via PAO)

Edit: One more:
From Polymorph magic section:
"In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses."
A Stirge's attack is listed as: Melee touch +7 (attach). Would a creature gain the blood drain ability of a stirge since that's the stirges natural attack? The spell doesn't specifically say "Blood Drain" in the listed abilities, but since this is the creature's natural attack and is less powerful than some of the other abilities gained(like some poisons), I wasn't sure.

Edit again:
Another question. This one a little more off topic.
Can a Spectral Hand be used to deliver a touch spell with a material component? I had originally thought that the material component has to touch the target, but I don't see any rules indicating this, and the more I think about it, it makes more sense that the material component would be in the hands of the spellcaster.

One more:
When an undead creature is turned PaO'd into a non-undead creature, do they gain a constitution score? And do their hit points change appropriately to be based off Con, rather than Cha?

[reefwood]

Rescheduling - Chapter 20

Aug 5, 2011 10:07:59 GMT -5 reefwood said:

Okay, we are set to play part 1 of Chapter 20 on Thursday the 18th at 6pm. Woo!

Rabbit can no longer play next Thursday but is available next Wednesday the 17th. Does that evening work for others?

Also, icnivad is going out of town the following week, and one week after he gets back, I go out of town for two weeks. This means there may be a small window in between to run Part of Chapter 20. Would people want to try for Wed, Sept 7th or Thur, Sept 8th? Or if next Wed doesn't work for Part 1, we could play it on one of these evenings instead and do Part 2 during the last week of Sept.

p.s. - I saw the PAO questions and will get to those later.

[michael]

I'm free to play on the 17th. Either the 7th or the 8th works fine for me as well.

[icnivad]

All of the dates mentioned work for me, too.

[reefwood]

Re: Rescheduling - Chapter 20

Aug 11, 2011 17:11:57 GMT -5 michael said:

I'm free to play on the 17th. Either the 7th or the 8th works fine for me as well.

Aug 11, 2011 20:13:26 GMT -5 icnivad said:

All of the dates mentioned work for me, too.

Excellent! Then we are set to play Chapter 20, Part 1 on Wednesday the 17th.

And Rabbit, would Sept 7th or 8th work for you to play Part 2?

[Rabbit]

Aug 11, 2011 20:28:42 GMT -5 reefwood said:

And Rabbit, would Sept 7th or 8th work for you to play Part 2?

Both could work, but the 8th (thurs) works better.

[reefwood]

Re: Scheduling - Chapter 20

Aug 12, 2011 11:20:02 GMT -5 Rabbit said:

Aug 11, 2011 20:28:42 GMT -5 reefwood said:

And Rabbit, would Sept 7th or 8th work for you to play Part 2?

Both could work, but the 8th (thurs) works better.

Ok, so we are playing Part 2 on Thursday, Sept 8th. Woo!

[reefwood]

Re: Polymorph Any Object

Aug 11, 2011 12:52:33 GMT -5 icnivad said:

So, I might actually use PAO this next level, so i wanted to clarify some stuff. We might have covered some of this, so I apologies if I'm double covering ground, but I figure we should get this nailed down so there's no ambiguity.

It's good to bring up any questions you have even if they've been covered, and I never wound up coming to a concrete answer on how this spell works in every situation. I will go back over my old posts and try to put together a basic summary that covers most situations. Creature-to-creature polymorph should be pretty straightforward, except when mindless creatures gain Int from it... which seems a bit odd, but if a pebble can gain Int through this spell, it seems fair that a spider or zombie does as well. And I remember coming up with some sort of object-to-object and object-to-creature and creature-to-object ideas with player help that weren't consistent across the board but made decent sense for each separate category. Although, no matter what, I have a feeling that there will be ambiguity with this spell and later rulings may be different than prior rulings, and this may not change the prior rulings. That's just how it's going to be, and even though everything in the rules is technically up to DM discretion, the Polymorph section itself re-emphasizes this. We can just look at it somewhat like more powerful magic being harder to control and sometimes having unusual outcomes.

Oh, and a good thing to remember with polymorph is that you don't actually turn into another creature. It's more like you put on a magic suit, and the magic suit can do lots of different things, but only a few at a time based on the limitations of the creature, and it can never be better than the creature. And it can't do anything that isn't built into the magic suit.

In the polymorph spell, I assume you lose your natural movement
type since you lose your natural body(including wings). It seems like a creature who flies magically (like a nightmare) might not lose this. Is that correct?

Polymorph: While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.

Flight is either (Ex) or (Su), so magical flight would be supernatural since supernatural is magic. However, that still doesn't define how exactly magical fight works. Does a Nightmare fly because it has magic legs that can run on air? Does a Bone Devil flap its "useless wings" because even though they don't catch air like normal wings, they are magic, so flapping still creates flight? I can see it working this way or (Su) flight just being magic bestowed on the entire creature, but either way, supernatural abilities and movement types are lost, so between these two, I feel pretty safe ruling that (Ex) and (Su) flight are lost with polymorph. Although, a sorcerer who can grow wings as a class feature can still grow wings in a different form... I guess even when in the shape of a boulder... but a boulder probably couldn't grow claws since it doesn't have fingers, and claws sticking out of a boulder would probably be useless anyway. It would just make the boulder look freaky.

When it says you gain the listed ability in the polymorph spell, if they specify the details of the ability (like Fly 120), that means you gain fly 120 whenever the creature you turn into can fly, correct? Or do I gain the creature's fly, or fly 120, whichever is smaller?

You always go with the "lesser/worse" option. If you polymorph into a bird with 100 ft fly speed, but the spell only allows for a 20 ft fly speed, you fly 20 ft. If you polymorph into a bird with a 100 ft fly speed, and the spell allows up to a 500 ft fly speed, you fly 100 ft.

What about when the ability isn't described? Like "breath weapon" Does the recipient gain the breath weapon as written in the creature's description?

The specific polymorph in question is Beast Shape IV (via Greater Polymorph via PAO)

If an ability isn't listed in the spell or the Polymorph section, you do not get it. Beast Shape IV does give a breath weapon, so I'm not sure what your question is about it?

Oh, wait, are you asking what kind of breath weapon it gets? The details would be based on the creature, and there is a section in the Bestiary that broadly defines all breath weapons. I'd say the shape and damage are the same as the creature since those probably remain the same even if Creature A1 and Creature A2 have different stats, so Polymorph A would have the same breath weapon shape and damage. However, the DC does change based on racial HD and Con mod, so that would be based on stats of the polymorphed creature. A human has no racial HD and could have a higher or lower Con mod than a chimera.

Edit: One more:
From Polymorph magic section:
"In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses."
A Stirge's attack is listed as: Melee touch +7 (attach). Would a creature gain the blood drain ability of a stirge since that's the stirges natural attack? The spell doesn't specifically say "Blood Drain" in the listed abilities, but since this is the creature's natural attack and is less powerful than some of the other abilities gained(like some poisons), I wasn't sure.

Natural attacks are very clearly defined. The stirge is an interesting example because it doesn't have any natural attacks. It has special attacks/abilities, but the Attach, Blood Drain, and Diseased extraordinary abilities cannot be gained through Beast Shape IV.


And if there is anything you plan on polymorphing, it would be good to figure out the stats before the session.

---

Re: Spectral Hand

Edit again:
Another question. This one a little more off topic.
Can a Spectral Hand be used to deliver a touch spell with a material component? I had originally thought that the material component has to touch the target, but I don't see any rules indicating this, and the more I think about it, it makes more sense that the material component would be in the hands of the spellcaster.

The way I see it... unless a spell specifically calls for it, a material component doesn't have to touch the target. It gets consumed when the spell is cast, and the touch comes after the casting. You can even cast, move, and then make the touch attack.

However, the spectral hand is incorporeal and doesn't seem to have a Str score, so it can't hold anything, but I don't think this will be an issue for casting.

[icnivad]

Yeah. I can calulate them. Was planning on holding off till I knew about the flight/movement type, since that changes my options.

In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form

In the case of a breath weapon, this sounds like I use Nimarious' spellcasting dc, right?

And did you see the question about undead gaining constitution scores? And if that changes their hp?

[reefwood]

Aug 12, 2011 14:42:09 GMT -5 icnivad said:

In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form

In the case of a breath weapon, this sounds like I use Nimarious' spellcasting dc, right?

Oh yeah, good catch about the DC. The breath weapon DC would be the DC of the polymorph spell.

One more:
When an undead creature is turned PaO'd into a non-undead creature, do they gain a constitution score? And do their hit points change appropriately to be based off Con, rather than Cha?

And did you see the question about undead gaining constitution scores? And if that changes their hp?

I missed this question. Hmmm... creature type does not actually change, so the undead will still be undead. A mindless undead gaining an Int score will become an intelligent undead, but any undead gaining a Con score won't change their stats since Con is overwritten by Cha.

[icnivad]

would horse chain shirt fit on a wingless bull like creature (gorgon)?

[reefwood]

Aug 12, 2011 17:14:29 GMT -5 icnivad said:

would horse chain shirt fit on a wingless bull like creature (gorgon)?

Yes, that seems fine since this armor doesn't cover the head.