OOC (out-of-character)

[reefwood]

Game Night - Chapter 20, Part 1

We are playing this evening at 6pm in the basement. Since this may be the last mission, I want there to be time to get through most of it, so it is being broken up into 2 sessions. Also, the last few missions have run pretty late, so tonight we will end at a reasonable hour - around 10pm - to help keep everyone fresh and just pick up things next time. Who knows, maybe it'll even take 3 sessions to finish this one, or if that is too much for people, I can cut some stuff out to make sure we finish next time.

And I haven't gotten around to going over polymorph any object or even being able to find all the old posts on it and won't have time before tonight, but I thought about the spell plenty in the spring, so I have a decent handle on how I want it to work. Most of the creature-to-creature stuff is pretty straightforward. It has to be a willing creature and most of the changes are spelled out in the specific sub-spells and the Polymorph section. Mindless undead polymorphed into another creature will gain Int and be treated as intelligent undead for how spells affect them (i.e. animate dead/command undead - only friendly as opposed to dominated and not willing to do anything obviously harmful unless controlled with a more powerful spell), but they are still undead in terms of how spells in general affect them. Object-to-creature is automatically willing, has the HP of the object, an indifferent attitude (i.e. not friend or enemy or have any reason to help), and can understand 1 language known by the caster. Creature-to-object has to be willing, has the HP of the creature, gains hardness of the material, loses all senses but also gains immunities based on these losses (i.e. can't drown or be blinded or deafened, contact with poison has no effect, etc) while in this form. Also, unwilling creatures can be targeted by using PAO as baleful polymorph, and it can mimic other spells that affect creatures and objects.

[reefwood]

Truespeech

Just a minor clarification on this one. I know there was some confusion as to how exactly this worked. It looks like the Archon does know what language is being spoken (as opposed to merely being able to just understand it), but the Archon can only speak one language at a time, so it can't say something that everyone can understand (unless everyone shares that language). Though, it can understand multiple languages at once.

Truespeech (Su): All archons can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level 14th). This ability is always active.

Tongues: This spell grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature, whether it is a racial tongue or a regional dialect. The subject can speak only one language at a time, although it may be able to understand several languages. Tongues does not enable the subject to speak with creatures who don't speak. The subject can make itself understood as far as its voice carries. This spell does not predispose any creature addressed toward the subject in any way.

[michael]

Hey guys, I'm going to be late tonight, possibly as late as 7:30 or 8, but I'll try to get there sooner. Sorry.

[reefwood]

Aug 17, 2011 17:59:13 GMT -5 michael said:

Hey guys, I'm going to be late tonight, possibly as late as 7:30 or 8, but I'll try to get there sooner. Sorry.

Thanks for the heads up. It might be a little wonky to have Brion and Garm show up after the mission has started, but I will use my all powerful DM wave of the hand to make it work

[Rabbit]

If we keep playing this game beyond the current adventure and if I decided to take Leadership and if I had a wyvern cohort... could Nihm polymorgh that into a dragon?

[reefwood]

Polymorph - Wyvern

Aug 18, 2011 12:19:09 GMT -5 Rabbit said:

If we keep playing this game beyond the current adventure and if I decided to take Leadership and if I had a wyvern cohort... could Nihm polymorgh that into a dragon?

He should be able to polymorph any willing creature, so yes, a wyvern cohort could be given dragon form. One thing to note is that size bonuses for ability scores are dictated by spell as opposed to following the standard modifiers. If Sahme is ever able to cast Form of the Dragon II, he could polymorph into a Large dragon and would receive +6 size to Str, +4 size to Con, and +6 natural armor... as opposed to the standard +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 natural armor that usually applies when going from Medium to Large... so some things are better and some are worse cos it's from a spell instead of a "real" size change, and I guess the specifics about what is better/worse may be somewhat based on what dragons are better/worse at.

Additionally, any creature that is bigger than Medium or smaller than Small has to adjust its ability score before applying the polymorph changes. When a Large wyvern is polymorphed into a Medium dragon with PAO (via Form of Dragon I), first it gets -4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con because it starts off as Large, and then from the spell, it gains +4 Str, +2 Con, +4 natural armor. So, it looks like it Str/Con cancel each other out, but there is still an increase in Dex and natural armor.

And finally, despite the ability scores not changing as normal, other size modifiers do change as normal - AC/attack, CMB/CMD, Fly, Stealth.

---

Chapter 20, Part 1 - post-game

I think I have all the active spells jotted down and when they were cast, but I am going to make a thread for last night to double check all this since some spells may end in the next few rounds, or several minutes, or few or several hours. So yeah, if you can, post in here what you should have still active.

And I believe the Chimera (Bloody Skeleton Bone Devil) was the only party member to get taken out, correct? So that would leave:

Brion
-Garm
Sahme
Nim
--Nightmare #1
-Zahn
--Nightmare #2
--Nightmare #3
--Nightmare #4
-Gorgon #1 (Bloody Skeleton Erinyes #1)
-Gorgon #2 (Bloody Skeleton Erinyes #2)
-Chimera (Bloody Skeleton Bone Devil)
-Shade

+Bloody Skeleton Half-celestial Ogre
+Bloody Burning Skeleton Half-celestial Ogre

[Rabbit]

Sahme should have to following spells active:
Fly
Globe of Invulnerability, lesser
Bull’s Strength
Spectral Hand

[icnivad]

Yeah, PaO can only turn a creature into a medium dragon, which might not help a whole lot for a large wyvern.

Spells:
Invis sphere on zahn
Zone of silence on zahn
Spectral hand on nim
Haste
Both gorgons have air walk

[michael]

Brion
Good Hope (Cast at the beginning of battle, lasts for 7 minutes.)
Air Walk (Cast 3 minutes before battle, lasts for 160 minutes.)
Haste (Cast at the beginning of battle, lasts for 16 rounds)
Wind Walk (Cast at 7 am, lasts for 16 hours.)

Garm
Good Hope (Cast at the beginning of battle, lasts for 7 minutes.)
Air Walk (Cast 3 minutes before battle, lasts for 160 minutes.)
Haste (Cast at the beginning of battle, lasts for 16 rounds)
Wind Walk (Cast at 7 am, lasts for 16 hours.)
Greater Magic Weapon (Cast at 7 am, lasts for 16 hours.)
EDIT: See Invisibility (Cast at the beginning of battle, lasts for 30 minutes)

Sahme and both Gorgons also have Good Hope running.

[reefwood]

Spell Duration - Rounds

I knew I had a reason behind my ruling for spells ending before the caster's turn.

The Combat Round

Each round represents 6 seconds in the game world; there are 10 rounds in a minute of combat. A round normally allows each character involved in a combat situation to act.

Each round's activity begins with the character with the highest initiative result and then proceeds in order. When a character's turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round's worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity and Special Initiative Actions.)

When the rules refer to a “full round”, they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.

Rnd 1 - Caster moves into position (Init 12)
Rnd 2 - Cast a spell that last 3 rounds (Init 12 - rnd 1 of spell)
Rnd 3 - Spell continues (Init 12 - rnd 2 of spell)
Rnd 4 - Spell continues (Init 12 - rnd 3 of spell)
Rnd 5 - Spell ends right before Init 12, so before the caster's turn.

This does mean that the caster will have one less action to use with the spell than if he had cast it on someone else. If the spell above was bull's strength, the caster couldn't use a standard action to make an attack with the extra Str until round 2 of the spell, but he could make attacks of opportunity with the extra Str before round 2. And I guess this is one way that metamagic could be useful because you can cast quickened bull's strength and make an attack with a standard action in the same round. Although, casters with the Arcane Armor feats would have to choose between casting a quickened spell (swift action) and using the feat (swift action) to avoid arcane spell failure because you can only perform one swift action per turn.

[reefwood]

Creature vs Object Spells - Destroyed Bloody Skeletons

***The Bloody Skeleton stuff won't affect the current mission because I don't want to change up things in the middle of battle, but these changes will apply in the future - whether it is this campaign or another game. However, the PAO stuff is going to matter for this mission.***

When the Bloody-Skeleton-Bone-Devil Chimera was destroyed, it got me thinking about how I handle spells after death. A spell that has a target usually only affects a creature or object. Sometimes only a specific type of creature or object. And a few affect creatures and objects.

When a creature is killed or destroyed, it becomes an object, so spells that affect creatures will end when this happens.

When a Bloody Skeleton is reduced to 0 hit points, it is destroyed, so it becomes an object. This means that the command undead spell and any other spells or effects that target undead creatures will come to an end since the destroyed Bloody Skeleton is no longer a creature but only a pile of shattered bone objects.

Animate dead is a bit trickier to rule on because this spell targets a corpse. A corpse is an object, but I'm not sure if a destroyed undead is a corpse. Actually, it probably isn't a corpse anymore because a destroyed undead is not treated like a corpse. It cannot be affected by animate undead, and it requires higher level spells to bring it back to life (i.e. raise dead and reincarnate do not work). So yeah, animate dead targets a corpse and then affects the undead it creates, and a destroyed skeleton is neither a corpse or undead in the standard sense, so this spell would end too. The Bloody Skeleton still comes back to unlife, but the animate dead link is lost.

I like how this will work for balance and flavor. For balance because it does seem a bit extreme that while Bloody Skeletons do require a double onyx investment upfront, they then last forever (unless destroyed in a special way) with no additional upkeep. Doing it this new way, they will still last forever, but they will at least require the use of a command undead spell to keep under control when they return to unlife... and even then, a 2nd-level spell that lasts over 2 weeks is not much upkeep. It could make things interesting if the party has to deal with a loose Bloody Skeleton that comes to unlife during a mission, but with 2 necromancers in the party, someone will probably be able to control it... or just keep destroying it until there is a chance to control it again. Plus, this gives a bit more incentive to not have a skeleton just fight until destroyed everytime.

As for flavor, I can see this as another way that "loose" skeletons wind up in the world.

---

Polymorph Any Object - Bloody Skeletons and Duration

As for PAO... this spell can affect a creature or object, so it will continue to last until the duration expires. Speaking of which...

Erinyes Bloody Skeleton to Gorgon
Same kingdom (animal) +5
Same class (outsider devil/undead to magical beast) +2?
Same size (Medium to Large) +2
Related (tree is to twig) +2
Same or lower Int +2

Bone Devil Bloody Skeleton to Chimera
Same kingdom (animal) +5
Same class (outsider devil/undead to magical beast) +2?
Same size (Large to Large) +2
Related +2 (tree is to twig)
Same or lower Int +2

The only part for me that seems a bit tricky is "Same class" because there isn't a list of classes and fantasy creatures fall well outside conventional class definitions. And I'm figuring this out as I type, so I don't have an answer yet. Let's look at the examples...


Lizard to Manticore = 5
Same kingdom (animal) +5
Same class +2
Same size +2
Related +2 (tree is to twig)
Same or lower Int +2

There are only 3 kingdom options: animal, vegetable, mineral... and between these options, the manticore is clearly an animal. However, it is not a reptile like the lizard, and I'm not sure if a magical beast would even be considered a mammal because some magical beasts are made of up different creatures. Is an owl bear a bird or mammal? I can't imagine that it is both or either, so it would seem neither. Even the manticore is part mammal (lion) and part reptile (dragon), so I guess it depends on what it mostly is. Moving on... the lizard and manticore are not the same size, they are not related like a tree is to a twig. And one odd thing that I now notice is that it must not get the "Same of lower Int" factor either... I thought this would always apply unless you cast it on something without Int (i.e. undead/vermin) because then it would gain Int 5, so it would not have the Same or lower Int in the new form. But this looks like this duration factor can be excluded even if actual Int doesn't change. The manticore has a higher Int than a lizard, so the lizard is turned into something with a higher Int - and even though it doesn't actually gain a higher Int - it still doesn't get this factor because the new form normally would have a higher Int. Interesting...


Shrew to Manticore = 7
Same kingdom (animal) +5
Same class +2
Same size +2
Related +2 (tree is to twig)
Same or lower Int +2

Again, the manticore is an animal, but where does the other +2 come from? Not the same size and not related. The shrew is either the same class as the manticore or gets it for having the same or lower Int in the new form. Next...


Manticore to Shrew = 9
Same kingdom (animal) +5
Same class +2
Same size +2
Related +2 (tree is to twig)
Same or lower Int +2

Manticore and shrew are both animals since neither is a vegetable or mineral, so +5. The Int of the manticore remains the same, and a normal shrew has a lower Int than a normal manticore, so either way, it gets this +2 as well. They are definitely not the same size or related, so the other +2 must come from class. And this means the shrew-to-manticore polymorph above also gets the "Same class" factor - I guess the lion/dragon is considered a mammal. This also means that the shrew-to-manticore polymorph didn't receive the "Same or lower Int" factor. Therefore, if you take the form of a creature with a higher Int, you do not receive the "Same or lower Int" factor even though you actual Int does not increase.


Looking at the Bloody Skeletons again...

Erinyes Bloody Skeleton to Gorgon
Same kingdom (animal) +5
Same class (outsider devil/undead to magical beast) +2
Same size (Medium to Large) +2
Related (tree is to twig) +2
Same or lower Int +2

I guess an Erinyes could be considered mostly humanish (mammal) and part bird, so she would count as a mammal but not a bird. The Gorgon is pretty much a bull with really thick armor, so also a mammal. However, a Skeleton has no Int, so that trumps the Int 14 possessed by the Erinyes in life. A normal Gorgon has Int 2, which is higher than Int -- of a Skeleton, so this change does not receive the "Same or lower Int" factor. Total duration factor is +5 Kingdom +2 Class = 7 (1 week).

Bone Devil Bloody Skeleton to Chimera
Same kingdom (animal) +5
Same class (outsider devil/undead to magical beast) +2
Same size (Large to Large) +2
Related +2 (tree is to twig)
Same or lower Int +2

The Bone Devil is a bit weird because it's kind of a skeleton with an insect tail but I guess it can be considered mammalish for it's human-like body, and the Chimera is a mostly-mammal with one-third-reptile-head and bird-winged. So weird, but I guess this works out close enough a duration factor of +5 Kingdom +2 Class +2 Size = 9 (permanent).

However, something more obvious like the Horned Devil would be a reptile class, and the Ice Devil would be an insect class.

[reefwood]

Wind Walk

I've been looking at this spell again since the question about how the different speeds actually work came up yet again in the last session. Plus, I am just curious to make sense of the somewhat ambiguous wording even if some of these thing may never come up.

One key point about this spell is that it is partly based off gaseous form, and that part seems to be the physical changes which includes benefits (DR, immunities, etc) and restrictions (cannot attack or cast spells with components). However, the speed part seems to be strictly based on what is stated in wind walk because this spell lists different maneuverability options (which affect Fly checks), but maneuverability doesn't matter for gaseous form since that spell auto succeeds on all Fly checks. Also, you cannot Run in gaseous form, but based on this interpretation, you can Run with wind walk.

As for appearance, I imagine that a wind walker looks similar to a ghost version of the creature, except that it is composed of mist/fog instead of the faded/see-through substance that makes up a ghost. And if you put on a white robe, you have a good chance of being mistaken for fog. Although, a chunk of fog the size of a human that moves around in an unusual way - such as floating up stairs or going in and out of all the rooms - could certainly be noticed by an intelligent creature as something not right.

The slow speed seems to be clear. You have a speed of 10 ft Fly (perfect = +8 Fly checks), which means that if you can take a double move (hustle) in this form, you can move up to 20 ft... or if you can run (x4), you can move up to 40 ft. Or maybe this wording is screwed up, and it is supposed to be 10 ft per round?

The super fast speed is where it gets more fuzzy. First off, it does not give a listed speed. It only says you can move up to 600 ft per round. If that was based off a Hustle, it would be a speed of 300 ft, or if it was based off a standard Run, it would be a speed of 150 ft. But if it was based of Hustle or Run, well, I don't understand why it doesn't just list the actual speed. That got me looking more at the wording...and this may have not been intended to be important...but I noticed that not only is the fast speed not listed as a speed (but as a per round limit), but it is also described as being wafted by the wind.

This makes me feel like the speed of 10 ft Fly (perfect) is how the creature itself moves, but if you want to move faster, you can "ride" this magical wind which is much harder to control but moves up to 600 ft per round (poor = -4 Fly checks). Also, it seems like as soon as you go faster than a speed of 10 ft, maneuverability instantly drops to poor. There is no in between.

What I am curious about is how this could play out in combat (which almost never happens with someone in mist form anyway) and how this could affect longterm flight (which is usually pretty short since the speed is so fast) - even though neither of these things may come up much.


Combat: You cannot do much in mist form. No attacks or spells that require components. Also, you lose supernatural abilities, so Brion cannot channel energy and Garm cannot use his aura of menace or truespeech. Pretty much the only thing you may be able to do is cast metamagic spells that have removed components and spell-like abilities. Although, even these would be restricted since it seems that not being able to attack means you cannot make a touch attack or attack roll, so you could cast a silent still fireball, but silent still scorching ray or silent still vampiric touch would dissipate harmlessly.

Also, having a speed of 10 ft Fly (perfect) means you can use a move action to move and then a standard action to cast a metamagic spell or spell-like ability, or vice versa. But when you are moving up to 600 ft per round (poor), it is not as clear when you could cast... but since it is like "riding" the wind, I feel like using the Mounted Combat rule where the casting takes place halfway through the movement taken that turn. Therefore, you can fly 10 ft and then cast, or vice versa... or if you want to move 15 ft and cast in the same turn, the casting would take place at the midpoint of movement and require a Concentration check for violent movement.


Longterm Flight: If a creature is flying at a speed of 10 ft, it can only Hustle for 1 hr before taking damage, and more than 8 hrs requires a Forced March check. However, if a creature if riding the wind, it cannot Hustle the wind to go any faster, but it also wouldn't get tired after 8 hrs. Although, 8 hrs at 60 mph is 480 miles, and I don't think the squad has ever had to move any distance close to that in a day, so even if you do tire out after 8 hrs, that limit will probably never come up in this campaign anyway.


Finally, since material armor and equipment becomes insubstantial, it seems to make sense that armor check penalty does not apply to Fly checks while in mist form.

I know most of this will probably never come up, or rarely, but I got to thinking about it and wanted to share. I posted about it on the Paizo boards as well to see if there is any official clarification about this.

Wind Walk

You alter the substance of your body to a cloudlike vapor (as the gaseous form spell) and move through the air, possibly at great speed. You can take other creatures with you, each of which acts independently.

Normally, a wind walker flies at a speed of 10 feet with perfect maneuverability. If desired by the subject, a magical wind wafts a wind walker along at up to 600 feet per round (60 mph) with poor maneuverability. Wind walkers are not invisible but rather appear misty and translucent. If fully clothed in white, they are 80% likely to be mistaken for clouds, fog, vapors, or the like.

Gaseous Form

The subject and all its gear become insubstantial, misty, and translucent. Its material armor (including natural armor) becomes worthless, though its size, Dexterity, deflection bonuses, and armor bonuses from force effects still apply. The subject gains DR 10/magic and becomes immune to poison, sneak attacks, and critical hits. It can't attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components while in gaseous form. This does not rule out the use of certain spells that the subject may have prepared using the feats Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials. The subject also loses supernatural abilities while in gaseous form. If it has a touch spell ready to use, that spell is discharged harmlessly when the gaseous form spell takes effect.

A gaseous creature can't run, but it can fly at a speed of 10 feet and automatically succeeds on all Fly skill checks. It can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks, with all it was wearing or holding in its hands, as long as the spell persists. The creature is subject to the effects of wind, and it can't enter water or other liquid. It also can't manipulate objects or activate items, even those carried along with its gaseous form. Continuously active items remain active, though in some cases their effects may be moot.

[michael]

Also, you lose supernatural abilities, so Brion cannot channel energy and Garm cannot use his aura of menace or truespeech.

Not being able to channel energy makes perfect sense, but truespeech is a constant effect. It requires no action to use, it's simply inherent to his creature type. It seems odd that it would cease to function.

A wizard would be unable to cast truespeech on himself while in gaseous form, but if it were already cast on him before the transformation, the spell would continue to function for its duration. This seems analogous.

[reefwood]

Sept 2, 2011 15:46:03 GMT -5 michael said:

Also, you lose supernatural abilities, so Brion cannot channel energy and Garm cannot use his aura of menace or truespeech.

Not being able to channel energy makes perfect sense, but truespeech is a constant effect. It requires no action to use, it's simply inherent to his creature type. It seems odd that it would cease to function.

A wizard would be unable to cast truespeech on himself while in gaseous form, but if it were already cast on him before the transformation, the spell would continue to function for its duration. This seems analogous.

It seemed a little wonky at first to me too, but even though supernatural abilities are magical, they are tied into physical form. Polymorph loosely outlines some of this and leaves the rest up to DM discretion, but this spell specifically rules out everything.

The wizard example is a good example of how it is different. Just like with polymorph, a spell cast on a creature before the change will continue to function after the change (except other polymorph spells).

[reefwood]

Re: Animate Dead link

One reason I have been thinking about the Animate Dead link is because I am wondering what happens when a Bloody Skeleton is destroyed forever. I am still tinkering with the link idea posted above, but currently, the link only ends when the animated undead is destroyed forever. However, another element of this that has just come to mind is what the caster senses thru the link, if anything; more specifically - does he sense when it ends?

If the answer is YES, this could open a new use for this spell. The caster would know whenever the link ends, even if he are faraway. This could be weird because if an animated undead is left somewhere - like guarding something - the caster would sense if it is destroyed forever... though, I guess he wouldn't sense anything if it was just destroyed temporarily... but I don't think this was meant to be part of Animate Dead or Command Undead.

Another thing that comes to mind is there is a limit on how undead can be controlled via Animate Dead, and the caster can choose which ones to release, so this seems to be part of the link too. If the caster is faraway from his animated undead and makes more that exceed his limit, he should probably still be able to choose which of the faraway undead are released. If so, the link can be voluntarily ended from faraway, which seems fine.

An idea I have for clearing this up is for the caster to need line of effect to the animated undead to sense if the Animate Undead link is still active. Line of effect is a pretty big deal for magic. But this doesn't require any action or effort. I kind of picture it like the caster having a magnet tied to a string for each controlled undead, and each undead also has a magnet with a string. When there is line of effect, the two magnets pull to each other, so the caster feels that the link is still active. Otherwise, the strings hang loose and don't give any info. But this still allows the caster to cut loose his string (release the undead) from faraway, and he won't notice if the string on the undead is cut loose (destroyed forever) from faraway. Also, this doesn't change how the controlled undead are given command - commands need to be spoken like usual, but you don't need line of effect for them to hear you - so this stays the same.

EDIT: I'm scrapping the above idea because I think I was overthinking things. At least for now, I'm going to stick with my original idea on this - which is that the caster realizes a Bloody Skeleton is destroyed forever when it doesn't come back an hour later.