Post by reefwood on Feb 26, 2010 16:04:12 GMT -5
Post Game (Siege of Verdas), Part 2
One part of running (and playing in) a game is making decisions on the fly as to not bog down the game with too much time spent on rules research. I'm fairly comfortable with this, and one of the things I like use is the basic +/-2 rule of adjusting something (attack, AC, DC, etc) if it seems easier or harder than usual. I think this even happened once or twice in the last session. After the game, however, I do like to double check things that stood out in my mind or seemed uncertain. I think that is part of the game too - to improve the understanding of rules and make DM rulings as needed.
I am going to cover a few things from the last session. Don't even know if they will come up again, but they will still clarify rules and may be able to serve as a basis for things that come up in the future.
And if there is anything else from the last session that people were curious about or thought went wrong, go ahead and speak up. And feel free to PM me if you prefer.
Mounted Combat
From what I gather, we played this mostly right in the last session. The one mistake may have been that, I believe, a spell cast while the mount is making a double movement is cast halfway through its movement. I am basing this off the fact that a ranged attack takes place at that point, and it says that the mount moves before and after the spell is cast, so it is cast in between the two move actions. I suppose the arguement could be made that the wording is not the same for making a ranged attacks vs casting a spell, so therefore, a mount with a speed of 50 ft could move 10 ft, then the spell is cast, and then the mount moves another 50 ft. This versatility could be useful in avoiding attacks of opportunity from casting and helping with spell range, but if so, I don't see why a ranged attack wouldn't receive the same treatment. So based on this, I am inclined to rule that casting takes place halfway through the double move of a mount. But if anyone sees something that I'm missing that makes a stronger case otherwise, let me know.
In either case, however, Sir Grolton could not have cast create water on the tower and reached the wall in the same round due to the short range of the spell. He could have either cast the spell near the tower and moved another 60 ft, or moved all the way to the wall but not been in a position for the spell to reach the tower when it was cast.
Also, there seemed to be some question about what actions can be taken by a rider when the mount is also taking actions. At least I was a bit fuzzy with this, but the rules seem to do a pretty good job clearing it up. If a mount takes a 5-ft Step, the rider can make a full attack with a melee weapon. If a mount moves more than 5 ft and up to its full speed (one move action), the rider can make a single melee attack. But what happens if a mount makes a double move and the rider want to make a melee attack? Well, the restriction on the single melee attack is because it takes time for the mount to move, so there isn't time for a full attack. Continuing along these lines, it seems safe to say that when the mount makes a double move, there is even less time, and therefore, not enough time for a melee attack at the end of movement. I feel like the next section supports this because it goes on to explain a way that the rider can make a melee attack when the mount moves more than its full speed (one move action). By making a Charge. And another thing that supports this for me is that it doesn't even mention anything about making any kind of melee attack when the mount takes a Run action. There must not be time for any melee attack. And of course, Mounted Combat feats work around and make exceptions to these rules.
Single and full attacks can be made with a ranged weapon regardless of how much your mount moves. There is just a penalty that increases as the movement increases.
My take on casting was already spelled out, and move actions are taken normally, so you can take two move actions without penalty regardless of how much your mount moves. One thing this doesn't address, however, is that some move actions provoke attacks of opportunity, so it is important exactly when the move action takes place. If this comes up, I'd say that time does matter and it works along the lines of a ranged attack. If you take a move action while the mount is moving, it takes place in middle of the movement. If you take two move actions and your mount makes a double movement, each move action takes place halfway through each of the mount's move actions.
Spider Climb Riding
This was pretty awesome work by Sir Grolton, but a couple things came to mind after the session. Walking up a wall would be pretty freaky for a horse, and the rider would have trouble with it as well.
Horses move along the ground. This is what they know, and it looks like the way to get an animal to do something it doesn't know is to "Push" the animal with a Handle Animal check of DC 25. This is a move action for a Druid to do with an Animal Companion. So what happens when the horse is on the wall? Is a Handle Animal check needed for every move action it takes to walk along the wall? I could see the case made for YES and NO, but for the sake of simplicity, I feel like a middle ground works best - it takes one Handle Animal check to get the horse onto a new-facing surface (vertical or upside down), but once it is on a non-ground surface, no check is needed unless it moves to a surface facing another direction (i.e. going from ground to wall 1 to ceiling to wall 2 to wall 3 would require 4 checks, and therefore, at least 2 rounds to complete all this movement).
Alternatively, a Trick can be used to teach the horse "spider climbing" which would cover vertical and upside down movement and only requires you to "Handle" the animal with a Handle Animal check DC 10 that is a free action for a Druid to do with an Animal Companion.
One more thing to note is that the DC to Handle or Push increases by +2 with an injured animal.
And of course, a mount that normally climbed up walls or upside down would not need to be "Handled" or "Pushed" to accomplish this.
As for the rider, I see two possible issues: 1) Staying in a saddle would be more difficult when the mount is moving vertically and perhaps impossible when the mount is moving upside down. 2) Taking actions while hanging horizontally (as opposed to sitting vertically) would be more difficult, and even more so when upside down.
1) I see two solutions to this one - either the rider or the saddle need to make the effort to keep the rider mounted. The rider has to use one hand to hang onto the saddle/reins to stay seated while riding vertically, and both hands while riding upside down. Or an exotic saddle could be purchased with safeguards to keep a vertical/upside down rider in the saddle, just as if the saddle was made for a creature that can fly.
2) The basic -2 penalty seems like a good solution to most of this issue, and it would double to -4 while upside down. This would apply to attacks, as well as skill checks that require the rider to move in some serious manner (but I'm not sure if any of them are really applicable while mounted anyway). Casting spells would not be impaired, but if an attack roll is needed, the -2 penalty applies to the roll. AC is a bit trickier. Part of me wants to treat it as a Climb check since hanging onto a mount in this manner, but that would mean a loss of Dex bonus and make the rider susceptible to sneak attacks. I guess for simplicities sake, sticking with the basic -2 penalty makes more sense. An argument that could be made against this is... what about riders of flying mounts? Do they get penalized like this too? Well, I think even while flying, the rider is still usually in a level position and sitting upright when making an attack. Although, I suppose lizard riders could go up and down walls and be in the same unusual sitting position as Grolton on his wall climbing horse. Okay, now I'm unsure. I guess one key difference is that lizard riders probably have training and are used to this kind of movement, but this movement is brand new to Grolton, so pretty freaking weird. How about the penalties apply until you place 1 more rank in Ride? Then, it means you now know how to handle yourself while vertical and upside down.
Finally, a couple things overlooked to keep in mind for the future:
1) Anytime you take damage while climbing, make a Climb check against the DC of the slope or wall.
Whenever the horse is injured while climbing, it has to make Climb check to not wall. This wall was DC 25.
2) If you're knocked unconscious while in a military saddle, you have a 75% chance to stay in the saddle.
I feel that being in a regular (non-exotic) saddle that isn't designed for a rider to be vertical or upside down would lower the chance to stay in the saddle. 50% for vertical and 25% for upside down. And in the session, Grolton still rolled well enough to beat 50% while he was paralyzed on the wall.
Acrobatics
Herzog had an awesome entry onto the wall and rolled great to do it, but the following DCs will be used next time.
The DC to move across a surface less than 2 inches wide, such as a rope, is DC 20. A successful check allows you to move at half speed and only one check is needed per round. If you want to move at full speed, you make the check against DC 25.
Additionally, I would rule that if you started at a higher elevation (like in the game) and wanted to slide down the rope to cover more distance, it would be treated as a Run in terms of how much distance can be covered and the check would be DC 27.
Wow. This was ridiculously longer and more time consuming than I expected. And feel free to shoot feedback on any of this my way.
One part of running (and playing in) a game is making decisions on the fly as to not bog down the game with too much time spent on rules research. I'm fairly comfortable with this, and one of the things I like use is the basic +/-2 rule of adjusting something (attack, AC, DC, etc) if it seems easier or harder than usual. I think this even happened once or twice in the last session. After the game, however, I do like to double check things that stood out in my mind or seemed uncertain. I think that is part of the game too - to improve the understanding of rules and make DM rulings as needed.
I am going to cover a few things from the last session. Don't even know if they will come up again, but they will still clarify rules and may be able to serve as a basis for things that come up in the future.
And if there is anything else from the last session that people were curious about or thought went wrong, go ahead and speak up. And feel free to PM me if you prefer.
Mounted Combat
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.
You can cast a spell normally if your mount moves up to a normal move (its speed) either before or after you cast. If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you're casting the spell while the mount is moving, and you have to make a concentration check due to the vigorous motion (DC 10 + spell level) or lose the spell. If the mount is running (quadruple speed), you can cast a spell when your mount has moved up to twice its speed, but your concentration check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level).
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.
You can cast a spell normally if your mount moves up to a normal move (its speed) either before or after you cast. If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you're casting the spell while the mount is moving, and you have to make a concentration check due to the vigorous motion (DC 10 + spell level) or lose the spell. If the mount is running (quadruple speed), you can cast a spell when your mount has moved up to twice its speed, but your concentration check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level).
From what I gather, we played this mostly right in the last session. The one mistake may have been that, I believe, a spell cast while the mount is making a double movement is cast halfway through its movement. I am basing this off the fact that a ranged attack takes place at that point, and it says that the mount moves before and after the spell is cast, so it is cast in between the two move actions. I suppose the arguement could be made that the wording is not the same for making a ranged attacks vs casting a spell, so therefore, a mount with a speed of 50 ft could move 10 ft, then the spell is cast, and then the mount moves another 50 ft. This versatility could be useful in avoiding attacks of opportunity from casting and helping with spell range, but if so, I don't see why a ranged attack wouldn't receive the same treatment. So based on this, I am inclined to rule that casting takes place halfway through the double move of a mount. But if anyone sees something that I'm missing that makes a stronger case otherwise, let me know.
In either case, however, Sir Grolton could not have cast create water on the tower and reached the wall in the same round due to the short range of the spell. He could have either cast the spell near the tower and moved another 60 ft, or moved all the way to the wall but not been in a position for the spell to reach the tower when it was cast.
Also, there seemed to be some question about what actions can be taken by a rider when the mount is also taking actions. At least I was a bit fuzzy with this, but the rules seem to do a pretty good job clearing it up. If a mount takes a 5-ft Step, the rider can make a full attack with a melee weapon. If a mount moves more than 5 ft and up to its full speed (one move action), the rider can make a single melee attack. But what happens if a mount makes a double move and the rider want to make a melee attack? Well, the restriction on the single melee attack is because it takes time for the mount to move, so there isn't time for a full attack. Continuing along these lines, it seems safe to say that when the mount makes a double move, there is even less time, and therefore, not enough time for a melee attack at the end of movement. I feel like the next section supports this because it goes on to explain a way that the rider can make a melee attack when the mount moves more than its full speed (one move action). By making a Charge. And another thing that supports this for me is that it doesn't even mention anything about making any kind of melee attack when the mount takes a Run action. There must not be time for any melee attack. And of course, Mounted Combat feats work around and make exceptions to these rules.
Single and full attacks can be made with a ranged weapon regardless of how much your mount moves. There is just a penalty that increases as the movement increases.
My take on casting was already spelled out, and move actions are taken normally, so you can take two move actions without penalty regardless of how much your mount moves. One thing this doesn't address, however, is that some move actions provoke attacks of opportunity, so it is important exactly when the move action takes place. If this comes up, I'd say that time does matter and it works along the lines of a ranged attack. If you take a move action while the mount is moving, it takes place in middle of the movement. If you take two move actions and your mount makes a double movement, each move action takes place halfway through each of the mount's move actions.
Spider Climb Riding
This was pretty awesome work by Sir Grolton, but a couple things came to mind after the session. Walking up a wall would be pretty freaky for a horse, and the rider would have trouble with it as well.
Horses move along the ground. This is what they know, and it looks like the way to get an animal to do something it doesn't know is to "Push" the animal with a Handle Animal check of DC 25. This is a move action for a Druid to do with an Animal Companion. So what happens when the horse is on the wall? Is a Handle Animal check needed for every move action it takes to walk along the wall? I could see the case made for YES and NO, but for the sake of simplicity, I feel like a middle ground works best - it takes one Handle Animal check to get the horse onto a new-facing surface (vertical or upside down), but once it is on a non-ground surface, no check is needed unless it moves to a surface facing another direction (i.e. going from ground to wall 1 to ceiling to wall 2 to wall 3 would require 4 checks, and therefore, at least 2 rounds to complete all this movement).
Alternatively, a Trick can be used to teach the horse "spider climbing" which would cover vertical and upside down movement and only requires you to "Handle" the animal with a Handle Animal check DC 10 that is a free action for a Druid to do with an Animal Companion.
One more thing to note is that the DC to Handle or Push increases by +2 with an injured animal.
And of course, a mount that normally climbed up walls or upside down would not need to be "Handled" or "Pushed" to accomplish this.
As for the rider, I see two possible issues: 1) Staying in a saddle would be more difficult when the mount is moving vertically and perhaps impossible when the mount is moving upside down. 2) Taking actions while hanging horizontally (as opposed to sitting vertically) would be more difficult, and even more so when upside down.
1) I see two solutions to this one - either the rider or the saddle need to make the effort to keep the rider mounted. The rider has to use one hand to hang onto the saddle/reins to stay seated while riding vertically, and both hands while riding upside down. Or an exotic saddle could be purchased with safeguards to keep a vertical/upside down rider in the saddle, just as if the saddle was made for a creature that can fly.
2) The basic -2 penalty seems like a good solution to most of this issue, and it would double to -4 while upside down. This would apply to attacks, as well as skill checks that require the rider to move in some serious manner (but I'm not sure if any of them are really applicable while mounted anyway). Casting spells would not be impaired, but if an attack roll is needed, the -2 penalty applies to the roll. AC is a bit trickier. Part of me wants to treat it as a Climb check since hanging onto a mount in this manner, but that would mean a loss of Dex bonus and make the rider susceptible to sneak attacks. I guess for simplicities sake, sticking with the basic -2 penalty makes more sense. An argument that could be made against this is... what about riders of flying mounts? Do they get penalized like this too? Well, I think even while flying, the rider is still usually in a level position and sitting upright when making an attack. Although, I suppose lizard riders could go up and down walls and be in the same unusual sitting position as Grolton on his wall climbing horse. Okay, now I'm unsure. I guess one key difference is that lizard riders probably have training and are used to this kind of movement, but this movement is brand new to Grolton, so pretty freaking weird. How about the penalties apply until you place 1 more rank in Ride? Then, it means you now know how to handle yourself while vertical and upside down.
Finally, a couple things overlooked to keep in mind for the future:
1) Anytime you take damage while climbing, make a Climb check against the DC of the slope or wall.
Whenever the horse is injured while climbing, it has to make Climb check to not wall. This wall was DC 25.
2) If you're knocked unconscious while in a military saddle, you have a 75% chance to stay in the saddle.
I feel that being in a regular (non-exotic) saddle that isn't designed for a rider to be vertical or upside down would lower the chance to stay in the saddle. 50% for vertical and 25% for upside down. And in the session, Grolton still rolled well enough to beat 50% while he was paralyzed on the wall.
Acrobatics
Herzog had an awesome entry onto the wall and rolled great to do it, but the following DCs will be used next time.
The DC to move across a surface less than 2 inches wide, such as a rope, is DC 20. A successful check allows you to move at half speed and only one check is needed per round. If you want to move at full speed, you make the check against DC 25.
Additionally, I would rule that if you started at a higher elevation (like in the game) and wanted to slide down the rope to cover more distance, it would be treated as a Run in terms of how much distance can be covered and the check would be DC 27.
Wow. This was ridiculously longer and more time consuming than I expected. And feel free to shoot feedback on any of this my way.
