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Post by icnivad on May 18, 2011 17:48:48 GMT -5
Ok. That makes sense. Is there any reason that Nimarious, himself, couldn't be the target of that spell? Usually "Creature" includes self. Say he wanted to turn himself into a dog:
Same kingdom (animal) +5
Same class (mammals) +2
Same size(different size) +0
Related (Unrelated) +0
Same or lower Intelligence +2
That would turn him into a dog permanently, right? Although his intelligence would drop because of it. How much of his personality would change? Would he just be a dumber version of himself? Or would he think like a dog? If he turned himself into an Elf, would he essentially be the same person in an elf body? Or would he be a totally different person?
Sorry for all the questions, but this spell is kind of ambiguous about a lot of it's details.
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Post by reefwood on May 18, 2011 20:00:23 GMT -5
Re: Polymorph Any ObjectOk. That makes sense. Is there any reason that Nimarious, himself, couldn't be the target of that spell? Usually "Creature" includes self. Say he wanted to turn himself into a dog: Same kingdom (animal) +5 Same class (mammals) +2 Same size(different size) +0 Related (Unrelated) +0 Same or lower Intelligence +2 That would turn him into a dog permanently, right? Although his intelligence would drop because of it. How much of his personality would change? Would he just be a dumber version of himself? Or would he think like a dog? If he turned himself into an Elf, would he essentially be the same person in an elf body? Or would he be a totally different person? Sorry for all the questions, but this spell is kind of ambiguous about a lot of it's details. Questions are good, and I agree about the ambiguity. This spell can work different ways that vary based on the starting target and what it is polymorphed into. Going from human to dog would take the greater polymorph route which leads to beast shape IV for an animal. The changes are based on Polymorph section in the Magic chapter and the abilities/changes outlined in beast shape IV. Polymorph works a bit differently in Pathfinder, so the human isn't exactly turned into a dog. The human is more turned into a dog-like creature. The human doesn't gain the skills of a dog or think like one, but taking the form of a Small dog does provide +2 Dex and +1 natural armor along with low-light vision and scent and certain size modifiers (and maybe other things...I just skimmed it), but there would be no change to size modifiers if the Medium human turned into a Medium riding dog. The beast shape spells do not change mental ability scores, so Nim would still be himself, but his abilities would be limited by his new form. A dog cannot speak verbal components or retrieve material components for spellcasting, though, I suppose it could move a paw for somatic components. But if Nim had a spell all set up with the Silent Spell metamagic feat, and the spell didn't require a material component, then he could cast it as a dog. The ability score changes listed in polymorph any object are just ways to add ability score to a target that lacks them. I think this would mostly apply to objects that get turned into creatures, but some creature lack certain ability scores too. I guess if you polymorph a skeleton into a human, it would gain Int 5, so not a very bright human...and if you polymorph a skeleton into a squirrel, it would gain Int 5, which is quite smart for a squirrel! EDIT: Hmm... greater polymorph is limited to living creatures as targets, but polymorph any object can turn objects into creatures, so I guess a skeleton to a squirrel should be okay...but could it work on a ghost or other incorporeal creature? Also, the spell says nothing about feats or skills, so I don't think these would be gained. Another thing this brings up for me is hit points. HP seems to be unaffected by this magic as well, which makes sense, since the new creature/object is really still the original target in a different shape. If you turn a pebble into a dragon, that dragon will have 1 hp. If you turn a boulder into a dragon, that dragon will probably have a lot of hp. Of course, if I am overlooking some rule that discusses hit points for these spells, we will use that rule once found. Oh, and yes, greater polymorph can be cast on yourself, so Nim can turn himself into a dog, and it does look like this would have a duration of permanent. Which could be problematic. Both beast shape IV and greater polymorph are dismissible, but to dismiss a spell with verbal component, you have to speak a modified version of the verbal component, which a dog cannot do. This wouldn't be too much of a problem for beast shape IV and greater polymorph since they only last 1 min/level and will run out on their own, but permanent dog Nim would never be able to speak to end the spell. Although, someone else could try casting dispel magic on him. You can ignore the crossed out part. Nim can resume his normal form as a full-round action, per the polymorph description: The subject may choose to resume its normal form as a full-round action; doing so ends the spell for that subject.Dang, this spell just keeps getting wackier and wackier... EDIT: Something else that I noticed pointed out by people on the Paizo boards is that this spell doesn't make the creatures you create linked or friendly to the caster in any way. Turning your friend into a dragon will still be your friend in dragon form, but turning a boulder into a dragon will simply wind up with a stupid dragon that doesn't have any particular allegiance.
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Post by icnivad on May 19, 2011 11:33:04 GMT -5
Aah.. Ok. That clears things up.
Polymorph L6
Uses Beast Shape II[L4], Elemental Body I [L4], and Alter Self[L2]
Greater Polymorph L7
Uses Beast Shape IV [L6], Elemental Body III [L6], Alter Self [L2], Plant Shape II [L6], Form of the Dragon I [L6].
Polymorph Any Object L8
This spell does not specifically add any new spells to the list of ones it can mimic, but it does bring new forms that it can produce. Most notably, giants. Would it act like the Level 7 spell Giant Form I in the event that a giant form is chosen? If that is the case, would it also use the other Level 7 transformation spells (Elemental Body IV, Plant Form III, Form of the Dragon II)?
Also, there are a lot of creature types that don't have a spell to base themselves on, like undead, ooze, outsiders, construct, etc.
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Post by reefwood on May 19, 2011 11:43:54 GMT -5
Re: Bind Undead to OtherThe second spell he would look into would be Bind Undead to Other: Similar to the level 2 spell, Command Undead but only affects mindless undead(who get no saving throw anyway), and binds them to accept commands from another creature. Alternatively, could only work on creatures already under the casters control, granting dual-control. Just so you know, I am still looking into how this could work. I don't really like the idea of casting a spell that gives control of something to someone else, but I'm not inherently against the concept of Skeletor controlling undead either. It should require some extra effort, however, especially since there are ways for Skeletor to do it on his own if he just makes the effort... such as taking a level in Cleric (which would also give him the ability to heal hiimself and undead minions) and giving him a wand, or even sticking with Fighter and just putting skill ranks into UMD to use a wand. Either way, he would most likely be doing this out of combat, so he'd usually have plenty of time to use the wand unless he rolls a 1. Anyway, an idea has come up for how Nim can get the overall desired result of Skeletor being able to command mindless undead. It won't be the spell suggested, and it will be higher level, but it will also provide other options. I'm still hashing out the details and want to sit on it for another day or two - in case any other ideas pop up and because sometimes I post ideas too fast before giving myself enough time to realize things I missed.
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Post by reefwood on May 19, 2011 12:54:39 GMT -5
Re: Polymorph Any ObjectYou managed to squeak in a post right before mine, so just in case you don't automatically notice, I have a new post right before this one. Anyway... Polymorph Any Object L8This spell does not specifically add any new spells to the list of ones it can mimic, but it does bring new forms that it can produce. Most notably, giants. Would it act like the Level 7 spell Giant Form I in the event that a giant form is chosen? If that is the case, would it also use the other Level 7 transformation spells (Elemental Body IV, Plant Form III, Form of the Dragon II)? Also, there are a lot of creature types that don't have a spell to base themselves on, like undead, ooze, outsiders, construct, etc. There is nothing about this spell that adds giant form (or any of the other creature types you listed). The two main things about this spell seem to be: 1) You can access a variety polymorph and transmutation spells by only needing to prepare one spell. This could be handy if you think you might need to take another form but don't know what yet. That way you can polymorph into a Tiny cat or Medium dragon or Large elemental or Huge elephant depending on what is needed, but you don't need to prepare multiple spells do get all these options. Although, if you want to polymorph into more than one thing, then you still need to prepare multiple castings of this spell or those it mimics. 2) You can add objects to the mix, so objects can polymorph to creatures, and creatures can polymorph to objects. However, both these changes are still limited by the spells they mimic, along with any new rules outlined in PaO. One other thing I should point out is that since PaO functions like greater polymorph - in terms of creature-to-object and vice-versa - the target has to be willing, so you cannot turn an unwilling enemy into a pebble, but you can turn an unwilling enemy into a toad since another way to use PaO is to duplicate baleful polymorph. Anyway, PaO does not use any of the giant form spells, and there are no spells to take the form of undead, ooze, outsiders, or constructs, so you cannot turn your human ally or a pebble into any of these creatures. And no, it does not mimic other Level 7 spells either. If it did, it would say so. It just mimics or duplicates the spells it lists as doing so. However, you can probably polymorph some of these creatures into a human or pebble if they are willing, but it is definitely not a wide open two-way street. Seems like you can target just about any thing (creature or object) that is susceptible to the magic, but you cannot polymorph the target into just anything. Also, some creatures may be impossible to polymorph into a human or pebble with this spell simply because it may be impossible to get a mindless creature like a vermin to be willing. Although, it seems fair to allow undead under your control to be willing, and PaO may be the only way to polymorph them since the lower level "form" spells can usually only be cast on a living creature, but PaO can be cast on objects and object spells can affect undead, so whether that was the intent or not, it seems fair to work on undead who are willing. And baleful polymorph could still be used on unwilling creatures as long as they don't have particular immunities or other defenses against it. Finally, I see that: Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to baleful polymorph, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action, so this answers my earlier question about whether ghosts can be affected. And the Incorporeal subtype states that they have no physical body, so it makes sense that you can't shape something without form into another form.
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Post by icnivad on May 19, 2011 13:58:38 GMT -5
I'm not sure why the target has to be willing. The target is "one creature, or one nonmagical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level" Doesn't say anything about willing creature. Also, the saving throw is listed as "Fortitude negates (object)". By comparison, Disintegrate is also listed as "Fortitude partial (object)". Harmless spells tend to say (harmless) or specify willingness like Teleport: "Target: you and touched objects or other touched willing creatures"
Also, their examples list some creatures that would clearly be unwilling, like sheep, manticore, lizard, and shrew.
The more I look into this spell, I'm surprised how ambiguous Piazo left it. Seems like they should
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Post by icnivad on May 19, 2011 14:18:17 GMT -5
Wow. Lots of unanswered questions on the piazo boards about this spell. Maybe we should just take it on a case-by-case bases depending on spell needs. Nimarious turning himself into an Ogre Mage seems a little abusive, but him turning a pebble into a fey for an hour because we need a captured fey in order to infiltrate an enemy camp seems more along the lines with the spell's intentions.
I don't really want to get too carried away with the details, since I think this is a spell that could break the game no matter how we ruled it. I think the important thing is to use the spell in the manner it was intended.
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Post by reefwood on May 20, 2011 11:56:09 GMT -5
Re: Polymorph any objectI'm not sure why the target has to be willing. The target is "one creature, or one nonmagical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level" Doesn't say anything about willing creature. Also, the saving throw is listed as "Fortitude negates (object)". I am handling this based on how polymorph spells generally work - by building off each other and applying changes based on what is listed in detail. And I can see how these lines make it confusing, and it would be helpful if there was some official clarification. The Target line of PaO probably does replace the Target line of greater polymorph, but the Target line is not where this restriction is found, so this replacement probably does not affect the "willing creature" restriction when PaO mimics greater polymorph (and its "sub-spells"). PaO can affect willing and unwilling creatures, but in different ways, and you determine the way based on the spell it mimics. So, if you want to target a willing creature, you look at the spells in PaO that can target a willing creature, and if you want to target an unwilling creature, you look at the spell that can do that. And now objects can be targeted, so it did have to add that. However, it would have been better for the Target line to include a "see text" blurb that outlined this more clearly in the description, but often these rules seem set up in ways where they outline the basics and expect readers to refer to other rules to flesh out the finer details. The addition of Fort saves seems geared toward nonmagical attended objects since these are the only objects that can receive saves from this spell. Magic objects cannot be affected, and unattended nonmagical objects receive no save in general when it comes to spells. So, it seems to be added for the new part of this spell which can affect objects. But greater polymorph has a harmless Will save, and baleful polymorph has a Fort save and Will save, so replacing both of these with a Fort save seems incorrect, especially since it would weaken baleful polymorph by removing the mental changing side of that spell, but again, this should have had a "see text" clarification, but maybe it slipped through since much of the PaO description just focuses on what happens when an object is affected that maybe they thought it was clear that the Fort save addition was also directed toward that side of things? Anyway, here's a breakdown of how it works for me: Polymorph adds the "willing creature" restriction in the first line of its description, so that is where it comes from. Greater polymorph functions like polymorph, and it does nothing to change this restriction, so I think it is safe to say that this restriction also applies to greater polymorph. Polymorph any object functions like greater polymorph, and it also does nothing to change this restriction. I hadn't been breaking it down quite this much before, but now that I have, this seems like even stronger evidence that the target still has to be willing if you polymorph it into a form based on greater polymorph. Whereas, if you use PaO to mimic baleful polymorph, you can use it to target unwilling creatures. Baleful polymorph has no restriction to willing creatures, nor does the spell it is based on - beast shape III. What adds to the confusion for me is the addition of the Saving Throw line for objects. I'm pretty sure this is intended just for objects (because gp is only willing targets, and bp has its own Saving Throw line for unwilling targets that wouldn't make sense to be discarded), but the description fails to do a good job of pointing this out. But pretty much everything in the description is about the object side of things - whether it is turning object into creature or vice versa - and it seems to me like gp and bp are where you look for creature into creature, except for duration. And this adds to the confusion too, how it doesn't better overall differentiate what you use according to PaO description and what you use according to the mimic spell. Although, even if you could target an unwilling creature with the greater polymorph function of PaO, it "may choose to resume its normal form as a full-round action; doing so ends the spell." Granted, plenty of bad stuff could happen in between your casting and its turn, but it also seems unlike the rules for there to be a spell that can target an enemy who can then automatically undo its effect. Usually you have to make an effort to break free (i.e. Reflex save, Str check, Will save, etc) even if you can try again every round. By comparison, Disintegrate is also listed as "Fortitude partial (object)". Harmless spells tend to say (harmless) or specify willingness like Teleport: "Target: you and touched objects or other touched willing creatures" does not have a Target. It creates a ray that you can try to hit someone with, and this is a good example of how spells aren't completely consistent since usually an offensive spell requires an attack roll or saving throw, but this one require both. But I don't really follow what this has to do with PaO which is based off other spells. I don't think disintegrate is based off any other spell, so it doesn't work differently than or change some other spell. Polymorph is harmless and requires a willing target. This is specified in the description, not the Target line, and now that I've had to think about it so much, I can see that perhaps the reason is because polymorph any object functions like greater polymorph which functions lie polymorph, so including it in the polymorph description ensures that the "willing target" restriction isn't removed when the Target line is changed. Additionally, baleful polymorph is not harmless, so including harmless in the Target line of PaO would have also been incorrect. It seems that the Target line of PaO states everything it can affect, but it doesn't affect all possible targets in the same way. Also, their examples list some creatures that would clearly be unwilling, like sheep, manticore, lizard, and shrew. I do like your point about the examples because you can't baleful polymorph a shrew into a manticore, so it would have to be based off greater polymorph which I think does require a willing target. Off the top of my head, I guess your Druid or Ranger buddy can talk to the shrew into it, which I know might seem ridiculous, but not much more ridiculous than a shrew taking the form of a manticore. Or given the ambiguity of the spell, maybe the examples were more to demonstrate duration than carefully selected as feasible examples. Either way, I will see if there is any official ruling about willing targets, but unless I see something to the contrary, I will stick with my ruling. Wow. Lots of unanswered questions on the piazo boards about this spell. Maybe we should just take it on a case-by-case bases depending on spell needs. Nimarious turning himself into an Ogre Mage seems a little abusive, but him turning a pebble into a fey for an hour because we need a captured fey in order to infiltrate an enemy camp seems more along the lines with the spell's intentions. I don't really want to get too carried away with the details, since I think this is a spell that could break the game no matter how we ruled it. I think the important thing is to use the spell in the manner it was intended. There is no way to use PaO turn into an ogre (a spell it cannot access) or ogre mage or fey (spells that don't exist), but I agree that a lot of this spell may have to be handled on a case-by-case basis, but moreso when objects are involved on one side or the other than going from one creature to another since that end of it is making a lot more sense to me now. EDIT #1: Although, if you need to have a false fey or fake ogre mage around, there are other ways to attempt this. Of course, the PCs will also need to know if such creatures even exist (i.e. Knowledge rolls). EDIT #2: Here are some other questions that came up from my prior post (which was cleaned up and become this post). I noticed that - aside from duration for any change - the PaO description seems to focus on turning objects into creatures. It doesn't say much about creatures into creatures, which seems fine since I think that is just based on the spells it mimics. However, it doesn't really give much info on what happens when a creature is turned into an object...
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Post by reefwood on May 20, 2011 14:19:08 GMT -5
Re: Bind Undead to OtherThe second spell he would look into would be Bind Undead to Other: Similar to the level 2 spell, Command Undead but only affects mindless undead(who get no saving throw anyway), and binds them to accept commands from another creature. Alternatively, could only work on creatures already under the casters control, granting dual-control. As I said before, I just don't like the idea of casting a spell to link one creature to someone else who isn't the caster, so I have gone a different route to provide the same effect and have done so by tweaking an already existing spell, which I am more comfortable with. The spell I am using as the basis is the Cleric spell imbue with spell ability, and I tweaked it into a Sor/Wiz spell that works with necromancy. Some elements were reduced and others expanded. It went from two schools (protection & information) & one subschool (healing) that focus on helping to one school that focuses on hurting (attack, create monsters, control). The spell level remains the same, but the spell level that can be imbued has gone up by 1, and the total number of spells that can be imbued has gone up by 2. The responsibility for how the spells are used has been removed, and the Int & Wis requirements were switched around. Imbue with NecromancySchool: necromancy; Level sorcerer/wizard 4 Casting Time: 10 minutes Components: V, S, M Range: touch Target: creature touched; see text Duration: permanent until discharged (D) Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance: yes (harmless) You transfer some of your currently prepared spells, and the ability to cast them, to another creature. Only a creature with an Intelligence score of at least 9 and a Wisdom score of at least 5 can receive this boon. Only sorcerer/wizard spells from the school of necromancy can be transferred. The number and level of spells that the subject can be granted depends on its Hit Dice; even multiple castings of imbue with spell ability can't exceed this limit. HD of Recipient Spells Imbued2 or lower: One 1st-level spell 3–4: One or two 1st-level spells 5–6: One or two 1st-level spells and one 2nd-level spell 7 or higher: One or two 1st-level spells, and one or two 2nd-level spell, and one 3rd-level spell The transferred spell's variable characteristics (range, duration, area, and the like) function according to your level, not the level of the recipient. Once you cast imbue with spell ability, you cannot prepare a new 4th-level spell to replace it until the recipient uses the imbued spells or is slain, or until you dismiss the imbue with spell ability spell. If the number of 4th-level spells you can cast decreases, and that number drops below your current number of active imbue with spell ability spells, the more recently cast imbued spells are dispelled. To cast a spell with a verbal component, the subject must be able to speak. To cast a spell with a somatic component, it must be able to move freely. To cast a spell with a material component or focus, it must have the materials or focus. * * * * * * * Skeletor has more than 7 HD, and command undead is a 2nd-level spell, so Nim can cast imbue with necromancy on Skeletor to transfer two prepared castings of command undead into Skeletor's two 2nd-level spell slots. Based on how spell levels work with placing lower level spells into higher level slots, it also seems fair for Nim to transfer a casting of command undead into the one 3rd-level slot too. Therefore, Nim can prep 4 spells (imbue x1, command x3) to give Skeletor 3 uses of command undead. Nim cannot prepare the 4th-level spell slot from imbue with necromancy until Skeletor casts the spells or is destroyed, or until Nim dismisses the spell. Nim has to be within range of a spell to dismiss it, and the range for this one is touch, so if Skeletor was kidnapped forever and Nim could never touch him, he would never be able to prepare that particular 4th-level spell slot again. This is, of course, a far-fetched example, but it is a risk that I wanted to point out, so it doesn't catch anyone by surprise if an imbued creature gets whisked away, even temporarily. Also, components are required, so imbued creature will need a spell pouch to cast spells with material components.
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Post by michael on May 21, 2011 19:38:28 GMT -5
He (Garm) was ordered by his (Garm's) god (Iomedae). Any talk of him being ordered by Gorum was long before he was finalized.
This interpretation has a much larger affect on Brion than just Garm's alignment. Brion already has strong ties to Law. The reason he's Neutral instead of Chaotic isn't because he doesn't have either tendency, it's because he's got strong tendencies towards both.
His entire military life and his devotion to Nemedor is lawful in nature. His father is of lawful alignment. Both of those things are far more important to him than Garm. If forced to choose, there's no question he'd sacrifice Garm for the sake of a mission. From Brion's perspective, Garm is no more significant to him than anyone else in his squad. He's just another soldier under his command. If Brion were given command of a whole host of Lawful soldiers from the Nemedoran army, would Gorum take issue? If not, why is that substantially different from Iomedae giving Brion command over Garm, from Gorum's perspective?
I've been presenting Brion like this for some time, I've even verbalized it at the table a few times. If Gorum will abandon Brion for strong attachments to Law, we were past that point before Garm arrived.
Also, just ideologically, a chaotic being having a ruling like this is antithetical to the ideas of chaos. Chaos is all about personal freedom over order. Laying down a hard and fast rule about who Brion can associate with is in itself an act of law.
Garm is not serving any chaotic deity, or even a chaotic mortal. His only loyalty is to Brion and Iomedae, not Gorum. My issue really has nothing to do with how it will affect the game, and more about how I conceptualize the character. He's been around for 2 sessions now, and it's really annoying to have to alter his personality and relationship to Brion and the rest of the squad at this point because of a narrow interpretation of alignment rules.
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Post by michael on May 21, 2011 20:11:44 GMT -5
This whole Polymorph discussion is really interesting. Obviously a lot of ways it can be abused.
How do undead factor into the duration of Polymorph any Object? Are they considered animals or minerals? Would a zombie be a different kingdom than a skeleton?
I didn't see any rules one way or another, but the HP of an object is all based on thickness. If you changed a pebble into a wall, shouldn't that wall's hit points be based on its new thickness? Plus, objects turned into creatures gain a constitution score, which to me would suggest they would have to gain hit dice of some sort. Maybe they just gain the base racial HD of whatever creature they're turned into?
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Post by michael on May 21, 2011 21:25:48 GMT -5
Can I borrow Skeletor for the rest of the evening?
I found a building site at about 6pm. I can't build much out of stone tonight, but I can still go hack down some trees and get started on a wooden structure. I think Skeletor and Garm should head to some nearby woods, chop down some trees, and bring them back to the site where we'll be building the base.
Am I able to have my followers work on something with the remaining time off? I have over 50 followers at this point. If I can supply them with the necessary tools and materials, could they construct the base? How would skill checks work for a group effort like constructing a building? Is there one person directing the effort who makes the check?
Did we also score any points for the dignitary we rescued?
I know these AP won't count towards promotion or rewards, but will it count towards renown for our Leadership score?
Also, this is my 3rd post in a row. Just want to let you know so you don't miss the earlier ones.
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Post by reefwood on May 22, 2011 2:20:57 GMT -5
Re: Brion Shaw - Leadership He (Garm) was ordered by his (Garm's) god (Iomedae). Any talk of him being ordered by Gorum was long before he was finalized. Brion can have a divine cohort through his connection to Gorum, and if it is going to be a Hound Archon, the altered alignment of NG makes the most sense. I don't know how these caveats were overlooked/forgotten, especially since they were the only ones I really honed in on. The background can stay the same, but it cannot undo these things cos that doesn't work for me. Like I said, Garm needs to be NG. EDIT: Oh, and I have no problem with Brion being Neutral (which, yes, means being Chaotic and Lawful), and neither would Gorum, but yes, if Brion become Lawful, he would lose his connection to Gorum. Am I able to have my followers work on something with the remaining time off? I have over 50 followers at this point. If I can supply them with the necessary tools and materials, could they construct the base? How would skill checks work for a group effort like constructing a building? Is there one person directing the effort who makes the check? As far as I know, Brion doesn't have any followers yet, but he can accept them at anytime, including right now. The first step is to assign classes to the followers. I guess it makes sense for followers to put in 8 hours of army time and 8 hours of sleep, so that would leave 8 hours on a regular day to do other stuff. They could work from 6pm (or whenever they are able to start) until 10pm on this day. Have no idea about skill checks, but they would need supplies, and that would depend on what is being built. Off the top of my head, it would be based off the Craft skill. If a base costs 20,000 gp (just as an example...I really have no idea right now but may have some old 3.5 books with info), and you have 50 followers working on it, then maybe they would all make checks and add them up to see how much progress is made each week. Cos if each one does like 200 sp of progress per weekly check, it would seem best to have them all add up cos the DC probably won't be terribly hard that it requires a lot of Aid Another. Maybe not everyone will make every check every week, but I would think most would if they are built to be good at this. Did we also score any points for the dignitary we rescued? I know these AP won't count towards promotion or rewards, but will it count towards renown for our Leadership score? No, all the points scored were listed, and no, side quests don't provide enough AP to affect renown. Anyway, those were the easy ones to answer, and now it is my bedtime. EDIT #2:
Re: Polymorph Any ObjectThis whole Polymorph discussion is really interesting. Obviously a lot of ways it can be abused. How do undead factor into the duration of Polymorph any Object? Are they considered animals or minerals? Would a zombie be a different kingdom than a skeleton? I would base it on the creature it was in life. A dead horse is still a horse body, and its cells are animal cells, even if they are now reanimated all creepy and undead. I didn't see any rules one way or another, but the HP of an object is all based on thickness. If you changed a pebble into a wall, shouldn't that wall's hit points be based on its new thickness? The thickness idea almost sounds reasonable for being turned into an object, but that could play out badly for someone with 150 hp who gets turned into a 20 hp object, even with hardness 10. One thing about the form spells is that they don't exactly turn you into something. It's more like wearing a costume that gives you some things and takes away others, but hit points are rarely, if ever, affected. Hardness might make sense to be part of object form since it is like the natural armor for objects. Although, this could be difficult to gauge since the form spells provide natural armor based on size, not on the actual creature. I guess hardness could be something as equally general but based on object material. Something like hardness 0 for animal matter (leather), hardness 5 for plant matter (wood), and hardness 10 for mineral (metal). I'm not sure, though. Plus, objects turned into creatures gain a constitution score, which to me would suggest they would have to gain hit dice of some sort. Maybe they just gain the base racial HD of whatever creature they're turned into? I wouldn't link Con and HD. Every creature has at least one HD, but not all creatures have Con, and none of the form spells provide HD either. Also, the Con score provided by PaO is 10, which doesn't add any hp, whether you have 1 HD or 20 HD. Though, it could go up with the dragon form spell, which would bring up the question about HD amount if HD got added, so it might be easier to simply avoid HD for objects. But gaining a +2 Con bonus with dragon form would at least give them a Fort save +2. Normally unattended objects don't receive saves, so would a pebble turned dragon receive a saving throw? Would it be treated as an object or dragon? If it did receive a saving throw, I might go with the idea that I use for the phantom steed - a spell that can target any creature can target it, but spells that target specific creatures cannot. Then again, maybe the pebble turned dragon would still just have Con 10. Cos yeah, the spell can grants bonuses to ability scores you have, but if you don't even have it, you might just get these basic ones instead.
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Post by icnivad on May 22, 2011 10:44:39 GMT -5
I would base it on the creature it was in life. A dead horse is still a horse body, and its cells are animal cells, even if they are now reanimated all creepy and undead. How would this affect spells and abilities that are linked to these undead? For example, what would happen to my control from animate dead or control undead if I turned a skeleton into a dragon? I think, as you said about wearing a costume, that it wouldn't actually change your type, and thus a skeleton turned into a dragon would still be considered undead, and so nothing would change? Although mindless undead would get Int, Wis, and Cha scores of 5, so they would become mindful undead while the spell was in effect. The thickness idea almost sounds reasonable for being turned into an object, but that could play out badly for someone with 150 hp who gets turned into a 20 hp object, even with hardness 10. One thing about the form spells is that they don't exactly turn you into something. It's more like wearing a costume that gives you some things and takes away others, but hit points are rarely, if ever, affected. It seems like the spell would operate slightly differently on objects vs creatures. The fact that they get stats indicates that it turns them into the creature, while with existing creatures, it just modifies the creature. Seems like an object would get turned into a base version of the creature as in the monster manual (although, with the creatures mindset, which would unlikely be friendly to the caster). While an existing creature would maintain hit points based on their HD and constitution score. Hardness might make sense to be part of object form since it is like the natural armor for objects. Although, this could be difficult to gauge since the form spells provide natural armor based on size, not on the actual creature. I guess hardness could be something as equally general but based on object material. Something like hardness 0 for animal matter (leather), hardness 5 for plant matter (wood), and hardness 10 for mineral (metal). I'm not sure, though. Since there's no spell to base turning into an object on, wouldn't it be simpler just to get the actual object's hardness? There are at least already rules and guidelines for that. Then again, maybe the pebble turned dragon would still just have Con 10. Cos yeah, the spell can grants bonuses to ability scores you have, but if you don't even have it, you might just get these basic ones instead. A pebble turned into a dragon would have con score of 12(10 base, +2 Form of the Dragon I), which would grant +1 HP per HD on top of what the pebble already had. There aren't really any rules to indicate this, but it seems like it might make the most sense to handle the spell a little differently for object and creatures. Using the various transmutation spells for creatures as the polymorph chain works, but actually turning an object into a real version of the creature using the standard creature |
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Post by icnivad on May 22, 2011 11:10:38 GMT -5
And yeah, Skeletor can help chop trees. How big of a base are you thinking for us?
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