[PnP] D&D 3.5: Den of Heroes

[reefwood]

As for items he might be interested in, a couple that come to mind:
Ring of sustenance - 2500gp - 8 hrs rest with just 2 hrs.
or
Fortifying bedroll - 3000gp - 8 hrs rest with just 1 hr. - one of these makes a lot of sense for my character because he's a natural at taking watch, and this way he could take watch for 8 hrs while everyone else sleeps, then sleep for 1 while other characters meditate, pray, etc.
If everybody had one of these, we could get by on 2 hrs sleep a night with two watches. Or maybe we buy one of these as a group and use it however we see fit?

I like the idea of the 8 hr/1 hr watch. Not sure if getting by as a group on a 2 hr watch would be all that helpful since we all can't see in the dark, so doing stuff by day seems to be best when possible. Although, I wouldn't mind chipping in later on for a group bedroll. It could be useful in a pinch when someone is injured, and as long as that someone isn't Enric, he could make a Heal check to tend while the injured one rests to gain character level x2 hit points with just one hour of rest. Otherwise, it would work well for hte 8 hr/1 hr watch.

*Slippers of Spider Climbing - 4800gp - Not sure I can afford this at the moment, but it's something I'm very interested in at some point.

In the meantime, you could get a scroll or two of it for our druid to cast on you when needed.

*Darkness permanencied onto an object - ??gp - I'm not sure how much this would cost, but I plan on asking the wizards if they would be willing to make this for me.

Just because I used to assume this spell worked differently that it actually does, I want to point out that the name is deceptive. It should really be called "shadows" or something because it doesn't make the area dark. It produces shadowy illumination, which is still great for Kuvpax cos he attempt to Hide in that to make a sneak attack, so maybe that is what you were thinking anyway. Shadowy illumination also provides a 20% miss chance for those being attacked in it, but we don't ever do that in this game.

Also, I recently read on a forum that pointed out this spell creates shadowy illumination, which technically means it does create light, even if it is dim. Therefore, if we were in complete darkness and unable to see, casting darkness would actually light up the area, albeit dimly.

I also found an item that I thought Reefwood's character might be interested in, Changeling weapon enhancement costs +2000gp and allows a spear, shortspear, or longspear to change it's length with command word turning into any of the above three weaponse. Could be useful so you don't have to keep dropping your range weapon in order to enter melee. Also, you can upgrade a single weapon rather than multiple, which might save cost in the long run.

This could be handy. Although to maximize my attack, I'd have to drop this weapon anyway based on my build. That's part of the reason I took Quickdraw, to be able to draw weapons as free actions after dropping the ones in hand. Then again, I'm not maxed out with attack right now - have Weapon Focus on mundane throwing axes and a pair of masterwork short swords. I will ponder this.

[icnivad]

Nov 10, 2009 15:44:36 GMT -5 reefwood said:

Just because I used to assume this spell worked differently that it actually does, I want to point out that the name is deceptive. It should really be called "shadows" or something because it doesn't make the area dark. It produces shadowy illumination, which is still great for Kuvpax cos he attempt to Hide in that to make a sneak attack, so maybe that is what you were thinking anyway. Shadowy illumination also provides a 20% miss chance for those being attacked in it, but we don't ever do that in this game.

Just re-read. Good point. I'm not sure how it works in this game since that first orc we fought used the same trick and in that case granted total concealment. If darkness does not grant full concealment, I have to seriously reconsider my class choice for Level 6 since the level of Warlock was based on the idea of using darkness. Rabbit, would you make a ruling on this? It looks like by the book, darkness just grants partial concealment (20%) miss, but I know the orc that killed our party early on had full concealment from his darkness so I thought it might work that way.

Nov 10, 2009 15:44:36 GMT -5 reefwood said:

Also, I recently read on a forum that pointed out this spell creates shadowy illumination, which technically means it does create light, even if it is dim. Therefore, if we were in complete darkness and unable to see, casting darkness would actually light up the area, albeit dimly.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I always read the phrase "shadowy illumination" to mean shadow that radiates in the way light does. It illuminates shadow. Shadow being what it does, illuminates being how it does it. Now that I think about it, I'm wavering on my stance. I wonder how the authors intended that. Again, Rabbit?

[Rabbit]

Nov 10, 2009 16:00:18 GMT -5 icnivad said:

Nov 10, 2009 15:44:36 GMT -5 reefwood said:

Just because I used to assume this spell worked differently that it actually does, I want to point out that the name is deceptive. It should really be called "shadows" or something because it doesn't make the area dark. It produces shadowy illumination, which is still great for Kuvpax cos he attempt to Hide in that to make a sneak attack, so maybe that is what you were thinking anyway. Shadowy illumination also provides a 20% miss chance for those being attacked in it, but we don't ever do that in this game.

Just re-read. Good point. I'm not sure how it works in this game since that first orc we fought used the same trick and in that case granted total concealment. If darkness does not grant full concealment, I have to seriously reconsider my class choice for Level 6 since the level of Warlock was based on the idea of using darkness. Rabbit, would you make a ruling on this? It looks like by the book, darkness just grants partial concealment (20%) miss, but I know the orc that killed our party early on had full concealment from his darkness so I thought it might work that way.

I want to go by the book on this; darkness just grants partial concealment (20%) miss. That orc (if I remeber correctly) did use darkness. If I gave him total concealmeant that might have been an error on my part, .

Since this could be someting that would be re-occures regularly I want to do it properly going forward.

Nov 10, 2009 15:44:36 GMT -5 reefwood said:

Also, I recently read on a forum that pointed out this spell creates shadowy illumination, which technically means it does create light, even if it is dim. Therefore, if we were in complete darkness and unable to see, casting darkness would actually light up the area, albeit dimly.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I always read the phrase;shadowy illumination" to mean shadow that radiates in the way light does. It illuminates shadow. Shadow being what it does, illuminates being how it does it. Now that I think about it, I'm wavering on my stance. I wonder how the authors intended that. Again, Rabbit?

I read it as it illuminates shadow and would not brighten a room. It would still have an effect but be barely noticable. Like lighting a candle in a sunny room.

[reefwood]

I remember the monster in the cave making the area around itself completely dark but just assumed it was using an effect other than darkness. Oh well. At least I was ready to give up on that character by that point. Was he a human fighter? I don't even remember. Maybe an archer of some sort? Anyway, on to the next ruling...

Combat Expertise [General]
Prerequisite - Int 13.

When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.


When fighting with two weapons, does the Combat Expertise feat apply to both weapons individually or together? For example, do I take a –2 on attack rolls for both weapons to add +2 Armor Class? Or do I take –2 on attack rolls for both weapons for a +4 bonus to Armor Class?

You get the AC bonus once. The attack penalty applies to all attacks you make until your next turn. If you use two weapons to make extra attacks, the penalty applies to the attacks from both weapons. It also applies to any attacks of opportunity you make before your next turn.

I highlighted a few parts because I need a ruling on this. The first thing is the benefit provided by Combat Expertise. The second part is a Q&A from the D&D FAQ. The wording of the feat reads as if any action (such as a 5-ft Step, free action, attack of opportunity) would reset the attack penalty/AC bonus. However, the FAQ reads as if these modifiers are supposed to last until your next turn, not next action.

Oct 31, 2009 14:04:17 GMT -5 michael said:

Assuming we sell off the mask and workshop, I calculated us getting 1797.5 gold each.

We have that ring of regeneration, too. I looked it up, and a ring of regeneration is 90,000 gold. Even sold at half price and divided 4 ways, that might be a bit more gold than Mikey wants us to have at this point. My thought was this; Since it's an evil item, crafted by a power demon in service of Hextor, it might be difficult to pawn off in a lot of places. In Fortune, though, it would almost certainly carry high demand. However, we're all on our way to Marsh's Bay, and don't have time to go there. Since we're meeting up with Captain Kurdow, we could have him buy it from us at a reduced price, (maybe 1/3 or 1/4) so that he can sell it in Fortune himself. Or we could ask him to sell it for us while we're away, and take the full payment of 45,000 when we return from our journey with the Mage's Guild. As an added benefit, these could open up future storylines for Fortune.

How does that sound to everyone? (Of course, if you wanted to let us sell it right now for 45k, Mikey, I don't think anyone would complain.)

So Rabbit, can we assume that the mask, workshop, and gems are sold?

As for our current wealth, Darven has: 620 masterwork short swords +250 masterwork chainshirt +100 misc weapons & equipment +126 gp = 1,096

Adding the 1797.5 from sold items brings it up to 2,893.5 gp. Starting wealth at 6th-level is 13,000 gp. Selling the ring for 45k and splitting it four ways would bring Darven up to 10,120 + 2893.5 = 13,013.5, so it would only put me 13.5 gp above standard

Of course, I understand if Rabbit isn't ready for us to be this suped up yet, and I know a few people have super expensive items which would mean they'd be more above standard than Darven. Regardless, Darven would prefer to get rid of the ring, whether it is sold to someone semi-responsible or given away for safekeeping/destruction. He wouldn't protest Kuvpax keeping it but would be wary. I guess the good thing is that if the kobold does go evil, a grapple might be enough to subdue him until we can unevil him.

[icnivad]

thanks for the clearups. I think I need to re-look at my Warlock level and see if it's still worth taking that level.

Gonna think out loud here.
If I took a level of Warlock he would still gain the ability to see through magical darkness, which, granted isn't as useful as it was since it does not grant full concealment. But on the other hand it might be more useful, because the other players would still be able to operate in it. It would basically give all creatures a 20% miss chance except for the one Kuvpax is attacking. He would also still gain the ranged touch attack, but it would only do 1d6 damage unless he could do it from hiding, in which case it would be 3d6, which is less potential damage than his dual daggers. He could also gain a touch attack that he could sneak attack with with a wand of any touch attack spell. Wand of Ray of Frost (375gp) would allow him to deal 1d3 +2d6 damage with a sneak attack. A ring or gloves of shocking grasp would be even better dealing 1d6 damage on a touch and he would be able to dual weapon. This could replace daggers as a standard attack. Rabbit: Use activated gloves of shocking grasp=2000gp? Is that right / findable?

[icnivad]

Yet another clarification request: (Man, Franco and I are on a roll today)

Two part question on Hide. Part 1:

Action
Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action.

Does this meen that hiding takes a movement? or that it just normally happens that way? This makes me thing that hiding is a free action, if you don't need to move(such as if you're in a shadowy square)?

Part 2:

It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

Since you can normally attack from already being hidden(but losing your hidden status), I assume this is referring to attacking and staying hidden throughout the entire attack. Is this correct?

[Rabbit]

I am not going to have time to address all this stuff until after work (we are closed Wed for Veterans day so lots to get done today.)

I know that some of this effects how people will level up. So lets plan on spending a little time in the begining of tonights session going over stuff and giving people time to finish their character sheets.

sound good?

[michael]

I'd chip in 375 for an artificer's monocle. If we get it, I'll change up how I allocated my skill points this level to bring Arcana up to five.

I do like the idea of the Fortifying bedroll. We'd actually only need 2 of them to get a full night's sleep, keep a 2 man watch, and prepare our spells for the day in 2 hours. Even with one, we could still do all of that in 4 hours. But, as reefwood pointed out, with our group members' lack of night/low light vision, operating at night might be a problem. I'd be willing to pitch in one one, but I also have a bit more money than everyone else since I'm selling my spear.

I was wondering if we want to all go in on a wand of cure light wounds? It's 750. Darvin can use wands, and it looks like Kuvpax might be able to soon as well. This would give us 3 potential healers in an emergency, and a way to heal up without Harry and I using our spells. Plus, the wand can be used without provoking an attack of opportunity, and while grappled.

Harry, I noticed you have an amulet of natural armor. Are you attached to it? Would you be willing to trade for bracers of armor? Your ac would stay the same, and it would save me 1000g to buy bracers and trade with you instead of buying an amulet for myself. (Of course, all of this is contingent on whether or not an animal can wear an amulet. If not, I won't bother.)

Nov 10, 2009 16:54:33 GMT -5 icnivad said:

Rabbit: Use activated gloves of shocking grasp=2000gp? Is that right / findable?

If we assume I"m reading this right, then according to the table in the DMG, the cost to create gloves of shocking grasp would be 2000gp, if it's created at a level 1 caster. (Spell level x Caster Level x 2000gp) You could create it at higher Caster levels for 2000gp per level, and gain an extra 1d6 each time. (Up to 5d6.) Of course, we still need Rabbit or Reefwood to confirm this. I'm think I've got a handle on the item creation costs, but this is the first time I've really looked at it. (I'm mostly just posting this for my own education.)

If this is correct, I should really look into getting something like this, particularly since I won't be wielding a weapon.

[icnivad]

Nov 10, 2009 18:43:59 GMT -5 michael said:

I do like the idea of the Fortifying bedroll. We'd actually only need 2 of them to get a full night's sleep, keep a 2 man watch, and prepare our spells for the day in 2 hours. Even with one, we could still do all of that in 4 hours. But, as reefwood pointed out, with our group members' lack of night/low light vision, operating at night might be a problem. I'd be willing to pitch in one one, but I also have a bit more money than everyone else since I'm selling my spear.

Good point. With two of them, Darvin and Kuvpax could take first watch while Ziff and Marle slept, then the spellcasters could pray during second watch while Brass watched. Oh, shit. does Brass need 8 hours? And there's some pretty cheap magic items that create light, like a permanent torch.

Nov 10, 2009 18:43:59 GMT -5 michael said:

I was wondering if we want to all go in on a wand of cure light wounds? It's 750. Darvin can use wands, and it looks like Kuvpax might be able to soon as well. This would give us 3 potential healers in an emergency, and a way to heal up without Harry and I using our spells. Plus, the wand can be used without provoking an attack of opportunity, and while grappled.

Not a bad idea. Eternal Wands are also a nice choice. They cost about the same and give 2 uses/day.
Although, it seems like with two healers that we have not had much problem staying healed.

[reefwood]

Just addressing a couple things real quick...

Nov 10, 2009 18:43:59 GMT -5 michael said:

Harry, I noticed you have an amulet of natural armor. Are you attached to it? Would you be willing to trade for bracers of armor? Your ac would stay the same, and it would save me 1000g to buy bracers and trade with you instead of buying an amulet for myself. (Of course, all of this is contingent on whether or not an animal can wear an amulet. If not, I won't bother.)

Bracers of armor provide an armor bonus and do not stack with an armor bonus from actual armor (or mage armor or anything else that provides an armor bonus). An amulet of natural armor provides an enhancement bonus to natural armor, so it adds to natural armor but does not stack with spells that provide the same thing (an enhancement bonus to natural armor), such as barkskin. Since Enric is wearing full plate (armor bonus of +8), bracers of natural armor +1 would give him no benefit.

EDIT: For another example, a +1 chainshirt has an armor bonus of +4 and an enhancement bonus to armor of +1 for a total AC bonus of +5

EDIT #2: An amulet of natural armor +1 would stack with Enric's full plate as well as with the +1 chainshirt.

Nov 10, 2009 18:59:06 GMT -5 icnivad said:

Not a bad idea. Eternal Wands are also a nice choice. They cost about the same and give 2 uses/day.
Although, it seems like with two healers that we have not had much problem staying healed.

Eternal wands hold arcane spell, so we would need a bard to use one with cure light wounds. Or Kuvpax could load up on Use Magic Device to use it in a pinch.

[reefwood]

Nov 10, 2009 18:15:39 GMT -5 icnivad said:

Yet another clarification request: (Man, Franco and I are on a roll today)

Two part question on Hide. Part 1:

Action
Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action.

Does this meen that hiding takes a movement? or that it just normally happens that way? This makes me thing that hiding is a free action, if you don't need to move(such as if you're in a shadowy square)?

Part 2:

It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

Since you can normally attack from already being hidden(but losing your hidden status), I assume this is referring to attacking and staying hidden throughout the entire attack. Is this correct?

I wonder about Hide every once in a while. A lot of the little details about this skill are somewhat ambiguous. It seems like if you don't need to move to hide and no one is observing you, it is a free action. Although, if someone is watching you, it takes a Bluff check (standard action) to distract them, and a move action would be needed if you need to move to reach cover/concealment, but that comes with a -10 penalty.

It may depend a lot on the situation. If you are standing in front of a crate that only goes up to your waist, you could fall prone as a free action to hide behind it, but just dropping to the floor could be loud, so if you wanted to crouch quietly, it might take a move action with a Move Silently check too?

EDIT: The Hide skill says you can snipe to hide after making a ranged attack with a -20 penalty, and that is a move action. It only refers to hiding after a ranged attack, but that second quote doesn't specify what kind of attack. So, I wonder if you could do the same thing after melee attack if you have cover (around a corner) or concealment (shadowy illumination)?

I tried answering some Hide questions in another forum:
www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130747

And while trying to find that thread, found this one too. Haven't looked it over myself much, but it might have something useful:
www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114797

[icnivad]

Nov 10, 2009 19:13:16 GMT -5 reefwood said:

Since Enric is wearing full plate (armor bonus of +8), bracers of natural armor +1 would give him no benefit.

Not quite. The following all stack with each other, but not with themselves:
Armor: physical armor, mage armor, bracers of armor
shield: shield, shield spell
deflection: ring of protection
Natural Armor: from a race with natural armor, or a class or feat that gives you natural armor.
Enchantment bonus to Natural Armor: amulet of natural armor. spell that grants natural armor.

An enchantment bonus to natural armor is actually enhancing your existing natural armor, so it stacks with races that have an inherent natural armor. And natural armor always stacks with physical armor.

Nov 10, 2009 19:13:16 GMT -5 reefwood said:

Eternal wands hold arcane spell, so we would need a bard to use one with cure light wounds. Or Kuvpax could load up on Use Magic Device to use it in a pinch.

Good point. I forgot about that. At the moment I wasn't planning on putting any points int UMD, but I could always throw them in if need be.

[michael]

Thanks for the info on the bracers.

Nov 10, 2009 19:13:16 GMT -5 reefwood said:

Nov 10, 2009 18:59:06 GMT -5 icnivad said:

Not a bad idea. Eternal Wands are also a nice choice. They cost about the same and give 2 uses/day.
Although, it seems like with two healers that we have not had much problem staying healed.

Eternal wands hold arcane spell, so we would need a bard to use one with cure light wounds. Or Kuvpax could load up on Use Magic Device to use it in a pinch.

Couldn't we also buy a use activated item with cure light wounds on it for 2000g, just like the gloves of shocking grasp? 500g each for infinite healing would be a pretty great deal.

[icnivad]

Thanks for looking into the hide question. The specific scenario I'm questioning would be from concealment from the darkness spell or magic fog which also grants concealment.

[reefwood]

Nov 10, 2009 19:41:01 GMT -5 icnivad said:

Nov 10, 2009 19:13:16 GMT -5 reefwood said:

Since Enric is wearing full plate (armor bonus of +8), bracers of natural armor +1 would give him no benefit.

Not quite. The following all stack with each other, but not with themselves:
Armor: physical armor, mage armor, bracers of armor
shield: shield, shield spell
deflection: ring of protection
Natural Armor: from a race with natural armor, or a class or feat that gives you natural armor.
Enchantment bonus to Natural Armor: amulet of natural armor. spell that grants natural armor.

An enchantment bonus to natural armor is actually enhancing your existing natural armor, so it stacks with races that have an inherent natural armor. And natural armor always stacks with physical armor.

Oops... that was a typo on my part. He was talking about bracers of armor +1, but I typed out bracers of natural armor +1, which don't actually exist... although, I guess they could with the extra cost of creating an item for an out-of-the-ordinary body slot.

And good to mention how different kinds of bonuses to AC do stack.